It might be time to establish some terms regarding polishers

Charlie, what a great subject for Thursday Chat, "how old are you Junebug?"

At least it will get everyone off of how old I am.

Did I say "dirt"?

Grumpy
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Like I posted on a thread today, sometimes Homer just pops in and there goes all sense of actuality or science.

Grumpy



I know that feeling only too well...;)
 
Kevin,



From your post: "Regarding mechanical action vs centripetal force, and how it deems the random orbital to be dual mode or not:



There is no denying that centripetal (center seeking) force is real and as powerful as a mechanical force. Some things we cannot see but the force is there; internal combustion engines pull oxygen-laden air into combustion chambers via a vacuum effect (relying upon the mechanical action of the pistons to create the vacuum). Jet engines create thrust by compressing air (relying upon mechanical action to create the thrust). In both cases, a tremendous force is created that accomplishes "work". I suppose that tornadoes are entities created by "invisible" forces, that in turn place massive centripetal force upon trees, buildings, and any other objects that lay close to its path.



Centripetal force is difficult to envision for most folks, so here is a diagram I made for the "paper" I never finished (it's not perfect in terms of analogy, but it should help to get the idea across:"





Thank you for attempting to talk to me in terms I might be able to understand. I'll think about what you wrote today and get back to this later. I'm really having trouble with centripetal force being center seeking. It seems to me that centripetal force is created by the velocity of mass creating inertia to stay in a straight line but forced by one mechanical means or another to vary from that course, a combination of mass, speed and radius of the turn, with a string or road being where the force is applied but not creating the force, therefore, not really center seeking but seeking to maintain an unaltered trajectory. So, obviously I've got some work to do.



Robert
 
Kevin Brown- Oh just get me going on the way Meguiar's uses certain words :rolleyes:



Ron Ketcham said:
An old painter taught me how to make a better "polish" for the final buff on a lacquer finish.

We took some DuPont #7, added some corn starch, some mineral or whatever oil was handy, a bit of water and went at it...



I too did that cornstarch thing, as late as the mid-'80s, but I used *Meguiar's* #7 instead as the Dupont still acted too harsh for me.
 
WhyteWizard said:
... I'm really having trouble with centripetal force being center seeking. It seems to me that centripetal force is created by the velocity of mass creating inertia to stay in a straight line but forced by one mechanical means or another to vary from that course, a combination of mass, speed and radius of the turn, with a string or road being where the force is applied but not creating the force, therefore, not really center seeking but seeking to maintain an unaltered trajectory. So, obviously I've got some work to do.



Robert



You understand centripetal force, or its ability to change trajectory on an object perfectly.

Take out the word mechanical in your above statement, and you're in there.

Think of it as a force that controls or directs... getting in over my head here.



It's tough to envision what is occurring in regards to the backing plate mounting spindle.

In fact, it's what stopped me from finishing the paper in a timely manner.



It took about 40 days to figure out the best way to describe the action using a diagram.

But, I could not create the image via my graphics program easily, and time marched on.



I'll try to make a diagram within the week.

Probably you, me, and one or two internationalists will appreciate it and say, "Ah... I see."
 
agreed with you wizard. There's RO, DA and rotary. Oh and linear for the buff pro drum polisher but I've never used one
 
WhyteWizard said:
....I don't doubt that the original intent or use of the term dual-action was likely used in conjunction with a machine that featured a gear or direct drive of some sort.....



The term "dual action" was created in reference to pneumatic, powered orbit/free rotation machines by the company that developed the mechanism and held the patents, National Detroit.



To this day, National Detroit's right angle, powered orbit/free rotation tools have part designators like DA, DAQ, DA-6, etc.

pneumatic-sander.jpg




When the patents expired (a long, long time ago) everybody was free to make similar machines. I don't know where the term "random orbit" came from, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was coined (perhaps by a competitor?) to avoid using National Detroit's nomenclature.



In the industry, "DA" became slang for anybody's version of similar machines.



Meguiar's picked up the term when one of their people noticed that the Porter-Cable machines seemed just like an electric version of the "DA" tools that are ubiquitous in the automotive finish biz. (Which basically, it is.)









pc
 
Is is not a wonderful thing to share some real information to people?



The internet is a wonderful tool, it makes information available at one's finger tips.



However---what is behind the information? What is the reason of the poster to provide their information, etc?



What Kevin Brown posted, shared, with all, is so "on the money", it is awesome!



He has "nothing to gain" from what he took a lot of time to research, to present, and for what? Nothing really.



The "PROBLEM" is "what is real and what is just someone's "agenda" or "let me feed my ego", or "let's see if I create a "trust me, for I know, cause I did it a couple of times", or worse, "go buy this because I told you it is what solves your problem!", thing.



Kevin did NOT DO that, he shared "real and factual" information with all.



The vehicle manufacturers do make mistakes on several issues, however, due to their requirements to meet the laws, the fulfillment of warranty satisfaction, they must do what is right.



If they did not do such, they are subject to huge fines, big dollars to pay out and that does not make the share holders very happy.



So, they look about the world, they find products, systems, processes that resolve their "concerns", and then after much money spent, to "prove out" that which they find, to fulfill the expectations of the majority of their vehicle's owners expectations, they publish or require certain products and processes to correct the concern/issue.



Nissan/Infiniti did this many years ago, and they did not just "jump" into deciding which way to progress.



The use of whatever term one's wishes to use, Dual Action, etc, was not chosen by the agenda of one or two or even 100 people, it was tested and "proven out" (engineers prove out everything in their area of expetise)



So----what is this post on this thread about?



Simple, each car enthusist who wants to do the best for their vehicle, because they are passionate about it, should consider "each source" of "information", such as who it comes from, where does their expertise come from, are they promoting a personal agenda or is the information they are sharing is tainted by financial gains, does it really come from what the manufacturer of "your", or any vehicle, has tested, approved and uses to resolve concerns.



Some areas of correction require just the use of a dual action, others require a rotary, some require both etc.



There are those situations and such that require that the job be one that is just enough to "get the vehicle over the curb in the real world".



Those kinds of situations are not ones that the enthusists detailer may be able to relate to, since they fail to understand that over 35,000,000+ (that is 35 million) vehicles are produced and sold around the world each year.



Now consider the number of "used vehicles" which people need to have to go to work, etc, and that number grows big time.



For the true "professional detailer" who lives and dies by having customers who will pay to take care of their cars, that number is very important.



Think about this long post, please, before you spend your hard earned dollars on some "flavor of the month" product to resolve some issue you may have no knowledge about.



I do not wish to be the one to receive responses from those who don't take a minute and think about what I posted and "I will not take time to "defend" what I just posted", for this long winded post is the result of over 50 years of being a gearhead, who has made a ton of money (lost most of it due to bad personal decisions) in those years.



Just a rant, however, very well intended to be of value to all the great people who visit/post on this great forum.

Grumpy
 
nice explanation and images Kevin. I'm technical but in a different way to you which is cool
 
Ron,



I started this thread for exactly the reason I said. Language is important, words have to mean something everyone agrees on for information to be transmitted and received.



At this point I've considered what other people have written and I'm leaning toward:



Rotary - polishers with only spin.



Forced rotation orbital - a machine like the Makita BO6040 in what they - the people in marketing - call the turbo mode, and the Bosch, the Festool Rotex 150 and finally the Flex though the Flex doesn't have planetary gears.



Orbital or dual action - for machines like the PC etc. that have free floating backing plates.



While I personally still think the term dual action is best applied to a machine with both orbit and forced rotation history isn't on my side, the term has been used for too long and is too entrenched to change. It would cause more confusion which was what I was trying to eliminate.



Robert
 
the other pc said:
The term "dual action" was created in reference to pneumatic, powered orbit/free rotation machines by the company that developed the mechanism and held the patents, National Detroit. To this day, National Detroit's right angle, powered orbit/free rotation tools have part designators like DA, DAQ, DA-6, etc.



pneumatic-sander.jpg




When the patents expired (a long, long time ago) everybody was free to make similar machines. I don't know where the term "random orbit" came from, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was coined (perhaps by a competitor?) to avoid using National Detroit's nomenclature. In the industry, "DA" became slang for anybody's version of similar machines. Meguiar's picked up the term when one of their people noticed that the Porter-Cable machines seemed just like an electric version of the "DA" tools that are ubiquitous in the automotive finish biz. (Which basically, it is.)



pc



Thanks for that info.

I remember the guys at the stereo shop grinding down medium density fiberboard (MDF) with one of those, then swinging the cam (not sure the correct term) or twisting a collar to the off-lock position, restoring random rotation.



Ron Ketcham said:
Is is not a wonderful thing to share some real information to people?



The internet is a wonderful tool, it makes information available at one's finger tips.



However---what is behind the information? What is the reason of the poster to provide their information, etc?



What Kevin Brown posted, shared, with all, is so "on the money", it is awesome!



He has "nothing to gain" from what he took a lot of time to research, to present, and for what? Nothing really.



The "PROBLEM" is "what is real and what is just someone's "agenda" or "let me feed my ego", or "let's see if I create a "trust me, for I know, cause I did it a couple of times", or worse, "go buy this because I told you it is what solves your problem!", thing.



Kevin did NOT DO that, he shared "real and factual" information with all.



The vehicle manufacturers do make mistakes on several issues, however, due to their requirements to meet the laws, the fulfillment of warranty satisfaction, they must do what is right.



If they did not do such, they are subject to huge fines, big dollars to pay out and that does not make the share holders very happy.



So, they look about the world, they find products, systems, processes that resolve their "concerns", and then after much money spent, to "prove out" that which they find, to fulfill the expectations of the majority of their vehicle's owners expectations, they publish or require certain products and processes to correct the concern/issue.



Nissan/Infiniti did this many years ago, and they did not just "jump" into deciding which way to progress.



The use of whatever term one's wishes to use, Dual Action, etc, was not chosen by the agenda of one or two or even 100 people, it was tested and "proven out" (engineers prove out everything in their area of expetise)



So----what is this post on this thread about?



Simple, each car enthusist who wants to do the best for their vehicle, because they are passionate about it, should consider "each source" of "information", such as who it comes from, where does their expertise come from, are they promoting a personal agenda or is the information they are sharing is tainted by financial gains, does it really come from what the manufacturer of "your", or any vehicle, has tested, approved and uses to resolve concerns.



Some areas of correction require just the use of a dual action, others require a rotary, some require both etc.



There are those situations and such that require that the job be one that is just enough to "get the vehicle over the curb in the real world".



Those kinds of situations are not ones that the enthusists detailer may be able to relate to, since they fail to understand that over 35,000,000+ (that is 35 million) vehicles are produced and sold around the world each year.



Now consider the number of "used vehicles" which people need to have to go to work, etc, and that number grows big time.



For the true "professional detailer" who lives and dies by having customers who will pay to take care of their cars, that number is very important.



Think about this long post, please, before you spend your hard earned dollars on some "flavor of the month" product to resolve some issue you may have no knowledge about.



I do not wish to be the one to receive responses from those who don't take a minute and think about what I posted and "I will not take time to "defend" what I just posted", for this long winded post is the result of over 50 years of being a gearhead, who has made a ton of money (lost most of it due to bad personal decisions) in those years.



Just a rant, however, very well intended to be of value to all the great people who visit/post on this great forum.

Grumpy



Once again, I appreciate your insight and thoughtful words, Ron. :hug:

I just don't know what else to say... a lot to digest in that post, as well.



SVR said:
nice explanation and images Kevin. I'm technical but in a different way to you which is cool



Always appreciate what you have to say. We don't see eye to eye on everything, but at the end of the day, nobody is the worse for it! Keep on experimenting! :nerd:



WhyteWizard said:
Ron,



I started this thread for exactly the reason I said. Language is important, words have to mean something everyone agrees on for information to be transmitted and received.



At this point I've considered what other people have written and I'm leaning toward:



Rotary - polishers with only spin.



Forced rotation orbital - a machine like the Makita BO6040 in what they - the people in marketing - call the turbo mode, and the Bosch, the Festool Rotex 150 and finally the Flex though the Flex doesn't have planetary gears.



Orbital or dual action - for machines like the PC etc. that have free floating backing plates.



While I personally still think the term dual action is best applied to a machine with both orbit and forced rotation history isn't on my side, the term has been used for too long and is too entrenched to change. It would cause more confusion which was what I was trying to eliminate.



Robert



Robert-



Funny how the original meaning (as penned by National Detroit) referred to the ability for the machine to be used in two different manners!



So... what I refer to as a dual mode machine was in fact... the original dual action machine!
 
I don't have much to add here, this is outside of anything I can speak to with authority. I just wanted to thank everyone involved for an awesome discussion and the free exchange of ideas in an adult manner. If only the rest of the internet would catch on.:xyxthumbs
 
JuneBug said:
Ah M86, it seems to be the forgotten polish, along with M95 - who uses these? Well, I tried 95 years ago and didn't think it was all that, so I never tried 86, but I remember Todd Helme telling me he used 86 and it was very, very good....



Meguiar's M86 So1o Cut & Polish Cream is an excellent product. It would have been hugely popular, had it not been pigeon-holed into being recommended for use for freshly sprayed paint and rotary application ONLY. Then, Meguiar's Professional Ultra-Cut Compound was introduced a short time later, stealing the potential thunder (more of a thunder clap) from M86.



Meguiar's M95 Professional Speed Cut Compound was designed to complete directly against 3M's Perfect-It 3000 Extra Rubbing Compound. What I noticed was... comparatively, the 3000 offered what seemed to be fast & immediate cutting action, but then dived off quite a bit. The M95 seemed to cut slower initially, but the cut continued for a longer period of time. It also finished out quite a bit better.



I am biased as I sell Meguiar's, so take it for what it's worth. That being said... M95 was designed with a specific purpose, which was to offer a familiar feeling but better performing product to compete with Perfect-It 3000.

It's no slouch. :rockon:
 
Kevin Brown said:
.... Funny how the original meaning (as penned by National Detroit) referred to the ability for the machine to be used in two different manners!



So... what I refer to as a dual mode machine was in fact... the original dual action machine!

I should probably clarify, National Detroit's DA machines are single mode only, powered orbit combined with free floating rotation.



They are quite emphatic about not building dual-mode machines. They feel that compromises the mechanism.







pc
 
Smoked Tails said:
I don't have much to add here, this is outside of anything I can speak to with authority. I just wanted to thank everyone involved for an awesome discussion and the free exchange of ideas in an adult manner. If only the rest of the internet would catch on.:xyxthumbs



Autopia.org is indeed the 'thinking detailer's forum'.



BTW: nice Cathedral town your from, my sister lives there...
 
the other pc said:
I should probably clarify, National Detroit's DA machines are single mode only, powered orbit combined with free floating rotation.



They are quite emphatic about not building dual-mode machines. They feel that compromises the mechanism.







pc





It's a damn shame the 9900 isn't electric.
ndt-9900.gif
That would be a beast.



The NDT-9600DE in an electric would be on my must get list.
 
I have a couple of inexpensive air da's, and use the heck out of them for sanding mainly.

However, I also have a couple of quick connect air line connectors, with a regulator attached, since I use the regulators for the paint guns.

Air da's take a good amount of cfm, not just air pressure, but since I have a large compressor that puts out 13 cfm, large air tank, can put the regulator on the line, dial in the amount of pressure, which cuts down the cfm a bit and have used an air da for some polishing, etc.

Not recommended for the untrained however.

Grumpy
 
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