Is this a true statement..-theory wise..

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Detailing=Artwork
What we are actually doing when compounding-polishing-is working on the CLEAR COAT ONLY right??
I mean under that, is the paint-and we don't really 'compound/buff/polish/wax' the actual paint do we??
What we are perfecting and worikng on, is the clear layer...am I correct in saying that...

If this is so..how can you wet sand 2000 grit and still have clear left?
I am thinking that wet sanding out scratches is removing a thin layer of clear..

Now if you have Orange Peel after a dealer repainted your car...like this..
100_4579.jpg

How would wet sanding work..Is the orange peel on the clear coat??
Or would they wet sand off the clear coat completely and then wet sand the paint and re-clear coat??
__________________
 
Could you please share the link? There are others out here with interest in this topic.

Thanks.
 
Heck, I don't want a link. It would be great if someone would just answer the dudes questions. :bigups
 
Blinded said:
Heck, I don't want a link. It would be great if someone would just answer the dudes questions. :bigups
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Seems like there might have been some comment made recently about posting links or information from and to other sites.
Personally, I have never gotten the impression that it was frowned on by the management, but that's just my opinion.
I don't think they will usually object to informational links. :dunno

Charles
 
I don't like the fact that it takes me to another site. DC is about being a resource and full of information. I prefer DC over other websites and I just think it is lazy to post links that direct people away from the thread at hand rather than answer the question here, where it was asked.
 
Orange peel is something that needs to be prevented and not just corrected. Since most vehicles have this problem, its not that big of a deal. the only way to avoid it is to wetsand between layers of paint. If the orangepeel is in the paint and not the clear coat, then wetsanding is not going to help at all. Its a problem that is the result of a paint job that costs under $20,000. If you want an absense of orange peel, then you are going to pay serious money for the job.

I'm with blinded on the links thing. I don't like links that direct away from DC. why not just post the information instead of the link? If you want DC to be a better resource for people with questions, then help out and post the info. As it is right now this is a worthless thread that offers absolutely no information other than what I just posted. That is useless to anyone searching for solutions to orange peel. If you have an answer for a problem then please share it. Don't post that you have the solution but you are going to privately link them to Autopia or something. Just answer the question and cite your source.
 
Blinded said:
I don't like the fact that it takes me to another site. DC is about being a resource and full of information. I prefer DC over other websites and I just think it is lazy to post links that direct people away from the thread at hand rather than answer the question here, where it was asked.
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:rolleyes:

Nothing wrong with expanding one's horizons and reading several sources. Laziness is sticking to one spot to learn IMHO. I posted it privately and there are still complaints :nono.
 
Hey Bill how about a copy and paste, so it gets archived here at DC ..and of course giving credit to the source:dunno
 
The Fuzz said:
Orange peel is something that needs to be prevented and not just corrected. Since most vehicles have this problem, its not that big of a deal. the only way to avoid it is to wetsand between layers of paint. If the orangepeel is in the paint and not the clear coat, then wetsanding is not going to help at all. Its a problem that is the result of a paint job that costs under $20,000. If you want an absense of orange peel, then you are going to pay serious money for the job.

I'm with blinded on the links thing. I don't like links that direct away from DC. why not just post the information instead of the link? If you want DC to be a better resource for people with questions, then help out and post the info. As it is right now this is a worthless thread that offers absolutely no information other than what I just posted. That is useless to anyone searching for solutions to orange peel. If you have an answer for a problem then please share it. Don't post that you have the solution but you are going to privately link them to Autopia or something. Just answer the question and cite your source.
Click to expand...

I couldn't have said it better myself! :bigups
 
Are you sure? It's a thread from "that other site". I'm honestly sorry if that upsets some folks here but my intentions are always to try to help whenever I can and I also appreciate all the stuff I learn from the folks here. Any way, here is the following verbatim excerpts ( thread just too long to copy all) taken from Autopia just a few days ago where a member,Gonzo, discussed how he had his orange peel drastically reduced. It's an excellent resource for understanding what orange peel is and the procedure to improve it:

Orange Peel Reduction Exercise with Anthony Orosco
Compared to previous vehicles I have owned, my new Honda Accord Coupe had moderate orange peel in the clear coat that was reducing the reflectivity of the beautiful sapphire blue metallic paint. I went to Anthony wanting to eliminate or reduce significantly this pesky "feature" of modern automobile painting technology.

Unbeknownst to me before hand, Ron Harris, a friend of Anthony's showed up to help. After washing and drying, work began by doing a reflectivity depth study. This entails placing a ruler against the OP'ed regions of the vehicle and seeing how much of the ruler reflection can be read. Some parts of the paint showed somewhere between 4 and 5 inches, a sign there was lots or room for improvement. Anthony took some before pictures, but had some camera problems, only discovered after-the-fact. so none are available.

I brought with me some Mirka Abralon 2000 and 4000 sanding disks for evaluation [by the expert] and this was used dry using a 6" random orbit electric sander. It comes with foam backing that is very soft and a backing pad that is somewhat firmer. Initially it was used at low speed but the combination proved ineffective as the softness of the padding allowed it to conform to the hills and valleys in the OP. Turning up the sander speed helped a bit but didn't seem to be knocking down the OP appreciably. Perhaps used wet with an air powered random orbit sander might demonstrate increased effectiveness, but that will be another story for another day. This was set-aside for a while.

Ron then started wet sanding a panel at a time using Meguiar's Unigrit 2000 and 3000 grit sandpapers. About half way through, he encouraged me to start, so I completed the remainder of the vehicle, while he ran off to run some honey-do errands. From time to time, the Mirka (4000) was used to see what would happen. It did eliminate some of the 3000 sanding marks and left the paint quite smooth to touch but not very shiny.

Meanwhile, Anthony was following us around the vehicle with his trusty Metabo rotary, erasing the sanding marks, using Menzerna Powergloss and Hi-Temps Xtreme Cut in combination with LC orange pad. I'm sure his product combination was contributing to some OP reduction as well. Final polishing was accomplished with a Cyclo, finishing pads and Menzerna's FP and as darkness was falling, I chased the Cyclo work, applying Klasse AIO. One last gentle power wash with de-ionized water got rid on any buffing residues in the crevices, nooks and crannies.

On a final note, the option to complete eliminate the OP was NOT elected on Anthony's advice in favor of leaving some [greatly reduced] to provide some lasting UV protection. It is now at the point where I can live with. I now have learned enough about the wet sanding process I feel confident enough to tackle any areas I find "offensive" on this or other vehicles.

Thanks Anthony and Ron - I really appreciate your freely sharing your combined experience with a relative newcomer to detailing.


Later response by the author....

As with any wet sanding, you want to use a firm sanding block (Meguiar's makes 'em, among others).

During the cutting of OP, say starting with 2000, you are looking for the tops of the hills to be cut off - they will appear dull, compared to the valleys, which remain shiny. Go at it gently, rewetting the paper/surface often and wipe down a lot to dry it, so you can really differentiate between the dull hills and shiny valleys.

Just before you cut the valleys, move to a finer grit paper, say 4000. At this point you don't want to cut the valleys, just smooth off the tops of the hills. It is way easy to cut too much and it really helped me to have a couple of "masters" around for guidance. Then polish as in the original article.

Get a hood or door from a junk yard to practice on if you have any doubts about how much is too much. It will get really expensive really quickly if you cut through the clear or cut it too thin, so in 12-18 months you need to reshoot the clear.

Believe me, even with guidance, it took a LOT of courage to put sand paper to my car - way more courage than it took to use the rotary for the first time.!
 
The clear coat on todays finishes is supposed to be applied between a 2 and 3 mil thickness for proper protection, durability and curing. This leaves room to wetsand and buff without causing serious problems. You are correct, that when wetsanding you are removing some clear but unless you get really aggressive, the amount removed is minimal.
My approach is this on repaints:
Wetsand with 1500 grit until just the tops of the orange peel are removed.
Wetsand with 2000 grit to remove most of the 1500 grit marks.
Buff to remove wetsanding marks
Buff to restore shine.
I stay away from the panel edges about 1/2" to 1" when wetsanding
If in doubt, I do not wet sand as much, then buff and if needed wetsand again.
Remember too that each step in the process will be removing and leveling the paint so everything doesn't need to be done with the first wetsanding step.
Usually the basecoat goes on smoother than the clearcoat so in most cases, but not all, the orange peel is in the clear.
Like Fuzz says, if you want zero orange peel wetsanding needs to occur between layers of paint. with todays finishes that takes a lot more time so the cost goes up.
Sorry for the long post.
 
I see my stuff posted around the internet from time to time. As long as I'm given credit for the information then I have no problem with people cutting and pasting. In fact, most of the time I see the information cut and pasted instead of linking back to the original site. Most of the time I guess the goal is just to add to the site's resources by pasting the information and not directly linking. I don't really mind either way. I remember when I was learning how frustrating it was to have to bounce around on several different sites to get the answers. I would always prefer to have the information cited than redirected.

Anyway, back to wetsanding. Kim and Fuzz are right about how it is all in the quality of the paint. When I had my bumper repainted earlier this year it took them three tries before I was satisfied. I told them when I brought it that it had better not have any orange peel when I picked it up. The first two times the orange peel was absolutely awful. My car is white and this kind of stuff is usually hard to see. I could spot this crap from across the parking lot it was so bad. I took it back and made them repaint it three times before they got it right. Its still not quite as good as the rest of the car, but its close enough. I understand that its a lot of work, but that is what I requested and it is what they said they could deliver. I think most people are ignorant about orange peel and they don't even see it. It is really hard to fix once the car has been painted and will likely require the car to be re-clearcoated after you are done. Its something that needs to be cared for durring the painting process and not after the fact.
 
And to add to Tyrell's point, I learned quite a bit when I apprenticed at my body shop. The % of orange peel is greatly reduced when the paint and/or clear is sprayed by hand. 99% of new cars today are mechanically sprayed, and while it is a major cost savings, most of the time, anal paint people (like us) get annoyed :angry

Thus, another reason why repaints "typically" look so much better than factory. You don't necessarily have to spend $20k on a paintjob to get no orange peel effect, just don't do the $299 special :nono

Hope this helped clarifying your question.
 
In this post, the one in question, I had fumbled up on some BEFORE pictures I took of Gonzo's sapphire blue Honda....so I took to task of wetsanding my own trucks hood to add some visuals to what went one.

I will post here those same pictures and the text as well.

Our work day was hampered by rains and some really gross humidity I was hoping for more sun so we could check the work as we went along but that was not to be.

Nick took quickly to the whole wet sanding process and after geting over the nerves he was going at it like a pro. After our first go around I asked him if he would like to knock it down one more time and after wisely asking the pros and cons of that he chose to leave it as is.

The factors one must weigh in making that choice is 1) Is the gain worth the risk and 2) Will you keep the vehicle for an extended period of time?

The first one is crucial because many guys sand and sand until the paint is completely flat (no OP left) which leaves their top coat, which contains the UV layer, seriously jeapordized. They then still need to buff the sanding marks out which only abrades away even more of the clear coat.....suddenly they burn the paint

I asked Nick the second question because if he had plans on selling the car in a year or so then I would of knocked it down once more which would of left him enough clear for a years worth of polishing BUT since he plans on keeping for some years to come the wise choice was to get the OP to a place where it was acceptable as Nick plans on polishing the paint every 6 months or so.

The final results looked really nice, I wish we had more daylight, but as Nick noted before we started we could only read 4 to 5 inches clearly on the ruler and afterwards we could read a foot plus So again I thank Nick for trusting my partner Ron and myself on his baby......which by the way is a beautiful color So if anyone is up to having their cars wetsanded.....come on down

I sure hope Gonzo doesn't mind me posting up a few pictures here but since I somehow messed up Gonzo's BEFORE pics I figured I would try and make up for it by once again using my truck as a guinea pig

I wetsanded the hood of my truck as it had some fair amount of OP. I started with 2500 and then went over it with 3000.

Here is a pic of it after the 3000

Wetsand3000.jpg


Now comes the rotary with a LC wool cutting pad and Akrya 600. Notice that the sanding marks are leveled and now we have to deal with the swirls. Here is a picture.

woolakrya600.jpg


Next step will be a LC wool polishing pad and Akrya 800. This greatly reduces the swirls, levels the paint and removes the hazing. You can see my garage light a bit clearer now.

wlpolakrya800.jpg


It can be hard to see from the pictures but while it may look good there is still some light hazing, naturally, left over from the wool polishing pad. This was taken care of with a LC foam polishing pad and my new Optimum polish. This is also the last picture....I apologize for the quality of the pictures but this was last minute

whtLCopt.jpg


Thank you,
Anthony
 
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