IPA use

It goes back to some internal politics in the late 90's, Canada operated seperate and often if they did something, the guys in the US offices in Auburn Hills would take a different path.

Than came Daimler and anyone at your dealership who was around during that mess knows what I mean.
 
That is correct, if one is wasteful and sloppy in the application.



This system has been used for over 18 years, on a somewhere in the area of over a million vehicles and the use amount is the result of feedback from users and time/labor/product studies done by Ford, Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda, Chrysler, etc.



The number of vehicles is a "guide line", for average sized vehicles.



A key to not wasting the product "A" is to have the bucket of solution right by the car and to use the big 9x9 was mitt provided. No sense in walking back and forth from the bucket to the vehicle and letting the majority of the solution drop on the floor.



It will hold close to a quart of product and all one has to do when using it to apply the "A" is to just keep flipping the mitt over and allow the product to get on the surface, not the floor.



Personally, I have done afew hundred small to full size vehicles (not vans) with a bit more than two quarts of mixed product.
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Use any quality car wash product, just not APC, or those which contain a percentage of a butyl cellosolve component (see MSDS for the product), as it is very caustic and will attack any wax or sealant.
Click to expand...



Off hand - can you say which car wash product use butyl cellosolve?
 
Ron Ketcham said:
butyl cellosolve component (see MSDS for the product), as it is very caustic and will attack any wax or sealant.
Click to expand...



Could you please provide some scientific data or study to back this up? I am aware that it has higher toxicity than solvents like IPA and that some people try to suggest it makes the (thousands) or products containing it as dangerous for use. Unfortunately these studies rarely look at the big picture and ignore the inherent toxicity of many common surfactants, not to mention the toxicity of the numerous organic solvents which would find common application in automotive care. However, causticity is not something I have ever encountered.
 
Ford has the information as they discovered in the late 90's that high butyl content was attacking the film former and binder of the paint resin system.(started with early damage being seen when a particular synthetic transist coating was used and the remover, both with high butyl content. Etching of clear, breaking apart of the 1k and 2k clears, cloudy apperance in a short time, etc)

Ron Otterman was in charge and shared this with John Hughes at Ford Body/Paint Tech as well as Daryl Porter at Chrysler and Bob Hartman at GM.

Of course this then was passed on to the paint suppliers, other vehicle manufacturers paint engineers, etc.

Examples of such damage is seen on a regular basis following the use of many all purpose, degreasers etc, however many attribute the damage to only the high % sodium hydroxide in a product, when it is the high % of butyl content that does as much damage.

IE, Castrol Super Clean, sure you have seen what that may do to coatings.

The "toxicity" of butyl components is well documented, with most addressing ground water contamination.

California has lead the way on this issue.

Ford, GM and Chrysler's World Health and Safety groups have been attempting for over a decade to either remove, replace or reduce the use of butyl's in products that they have produced and sell under their private brands.
 
That is interesting Ron. That information is not something that is easily available - googling the topic doesn't bring up anything definitive. To be honest I am really not familiar with any products which would have a high butyl content, anything I have made or have been asked to look at is in the low single digit percentage and will be far below that by the time they are diluted and ready to hit the surface. Certainly one of the major UK automotive manufacturers has this and related compounds in practically everything and no one ever discusses the subject - maybe you might prompt someone to ask this company some questions!



On the safety it is quite clear that there is no real inhibition in the use of such products. Companies like DOW and BASF have not really even taken the concerns under advisement which indicates to me that those attempting to cut down on use are not getting anywhere. To be honest I am not sure what they can do short of discovering a carcinogenic effect like NTA or some persistent bio-toxicity ala nonyl phenyls (which, incidentally, you chaps are still allowed to use, over here in Europe we have much tighter regulations!).



All the best and thanks for your info
 
When I retired, of course I could not take all my informational reference materials into retirement with me.

That, and being out of the daily loop with my many contacts in the auto industry, has put me way behind many changes.

There are many regulations here that only apply to "professional" or "industrial" use, not home or consumer products.

Which I have always thought to be counter productive to the saving of the enviorment, protection of the water supply, people's health, etc.

However, here, we have strong lobbist companies, who are paid to protect the interest of large companies and the products they produce and market.

If one can dig into the Clean Water Act and EPA regulations, there are many references to butyl cellosolve components, etc.

Since you are across the pond and have a much stronger education of chemistry, perhaps you can find out for me and others if one very interesting thing is true.

In the mid 90's, as I had a discussion with a European chemical company rep, he mentioned that delimoline (spell), the citrus solvent, was considered carcenigenic in Germany and a couple of other countries Health Ministries.

If I recall, he also (keep in mind this was an off the cuff conversation over10 years ago) that there was a movement under way in Europe to reduce the use of plastic containers for products, such as car care chemicals, that metal would be the container material of choice.

Is there still any such movement underway or did it just get trashed?
 
Coming from an academic background, I can empathise with the problems with information and who has it. It is very common for well known information to mysteriously fall off the map and newer generations find themselves repeating work. The Chinese seem to do this a lot - my colleagues frequently end up with chinese authored papers to referee only to quote back their own work which was done 30 years ago!



Anyhow, I digress. d-limonene (there is also l-limonene which is chemically identical but the mirror image - smells of lemons more than oranges) is something of a strange one. The world more or less assumes it is a great solvent to use, natural, safe, fab smell. Unfortunately the world generally fails to recognise that, irrelevant of its natural origins, it is actually a fairly toxic chemical to the marine environment. I have never heard about it being carcinogenic but it does produce allergic reactions in some individuals so there is some interaction and I guess it is plausible that someone found a carcinogenic link. However, given how hot the authorities are with regards to carcinogens (just look at NTA - it has been in everything over recent decades but now the EU considers it a 'potential' carcinogen and that is adequate to have dramatically limited its use), I would be surprised if there was a present carcinogenic concern.



Packaging, I am aware that some companies do favour metal containers but this tends to be limited based on cost. HDPE remains far and away the most commonly used and of course fluorinated HDPE is perfectly capable, even for many heavy solvents. However, I am not aware of any regulatory type moves in this direction. We actually do our best to recycle packaging, not only for environmental considerations but also cost. Metal containers that I have dealt with would more or less destroy this. Moreover, as I understand, HDPE is commonly recycled so this should not be a concern. That said, I know the packaging industry only as far as
 
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