Invest into new pads/product or a new machine?

[CTSV]

This is my first post here, I'll ask for a little leayway if this is a search the forums question, and I'm a bit-long winded sometimes, but here goes;

car is a CTS Black Diamond edition, paint is pretty new, 7K 7 months old, and unfortunatly, I told myself if I cant mod it (tyvm GM warranty..) I'll just keep her museum quality clean all year. That romance ended when the dealership ran it through the automatic death-washer twice against my wishes *and* destroyed the rear bumper- an ordeal that lasted 6 months and ended with 5 re-spray attempts and a new bumper which had to be painted by a local dupont paint specialsit in the area. So the object is to correct to perfection before wrapping the front panels-- I'd rather not try to match this paint ever again..



Product I have/ have used

I went from what was avaliable OTS at autozone hand polish wise to PC7424XP in one fell swoop via one of Adam's polishes big kits(before learning of this site)-- so I've been using their polishes and their 3 step pads. I've concentrated my efforts on several parts of the hood with no sucess-- even with their 4" pad combo and a drill in one particular area.



They're simply not comming out in any reasonable amount of time, at this point the pads I have are falling apart, mostly from being inexperienced and not keeping the PC flat, but I've since adjusted my tecnique with the guidence of several people and the results are still not there.

So--



in Stock;

some left-over M105

a no-brand Rotary

a Meguiars wool pad for said rotary

A meguiars red foam pad "

a white/orange/green Adams pad selection for the PC + their semi-flexiable backing plate

the PC7424XP

the 4" pads and same semi-flexiable plate.



As I understand GM clear is supposed to be pretty up there on PITA hard levels, and if it's anything like the Audi Beater I practiced on (with a rotary, wool pad and the M105) There's not a chance that what I have is going to knock out the stuff on the Cadillac.



Should I pickup some M205 , and a new pad set for the PC? -- if so, suggestions on pad selection -- or maybe a meguiars MF kit?



-or-



save for a new machine-- such as a flex with Forced rotation



and so we know what I'm talking about--

Sorry about the photo quality, unfortunatly this is highly reflective paint and the metalliac makes identifying defects extremely difficult(I'm not sure if that's good or bad yet), and even more difficult to capture.

 

[Dan]

M205 is LESS aggressive than M105.



M105 with a PC and 4" polishing pad will SHRED through clear. I've used the combo on MB cerami-clear and can get down 20 microns in less than a minute (4" spot).



It sounds like you're trying to mow the forest down before you even knock your first tree down. Start with a 2x2 area and then come back and let us know what's not happening.



And in case you think this stuff happens quickly, a full polishing on a swirled up car with hard clear can take anywhere from 6 hours to 16 and maybe even more!

 

[wascallyrabbit]

as for some the scratches showing (at least in pic 1) i would not pursue their removal without some paint thickness measurements. m105 is an aggressive polish as dan mentioned. too much/little product can cause the product to not perform as desired.

 

[Accumulator]

CTSV- Welcome to Autopia! Sorry to hear about what's happened with the car.



The MF cutting disks/"pads" work incredibly well, correcting my Audis and GM with no problems at all when using products like M105 or UNO.



While I'm not a big fan of the PCXP, I do think you can do fine with it, just updating your pads and perhaps your products.



I find the oils in M205 to be such a hassle (note that OTOH plenty of people don't mind them at all) that I prefer finishing with something else whenever possible.



And yeah, some of the flaws in your pix look like they're deep enough to think twice about removing completely. Yeah yeah, I too have wetsanded/etc. vehicles to perfection, but just remember that if you thin the clear a lot you can't do any subsequent correction on it later...maybe not even any "light sprucing up"-type work. And as soon as you think "nothing will ever happen to it ever again!", some twit will brush against it, or a meteorite will fall out of the sky and hit it, or something...

 

[CTSV]

It sounds like you're trying to mow the forest down before you even knock your first tree down. Start with a 2x2 area and then come back and let us know what's not happening.

With the M105? I've gone over a 2x2 section a few times now and while I admit my technique was improper the first few times, I have corrected it with the advice given; there are no results to show for, the scratches remain and are not diminshed even in the slightest, and there's so many of them it's hard to distinguish scratches from swirl marks, so I'm not sure if it even took swirl marks out.

And in case you think this stuff happens quickly, a full polishing on a swirled up car with hard clear can take anywhere from 6 hours to 16 and maybe even more!

I've collectively spent aprox 4-5hours on the hood- particularly in these sections alone. The adams product breaks down fine, I go over with several passes, clean my pads like I shoud, use high quality MF towels, use speed 5 or 6 as suggested, it simply doesn't put a dent in the clear- it doesn't haze up even slightly as I've seen SSHR do to cars on these forums. Worse, since the only comparison I have is a known hard clear-- the Audi, I'm not sure if it's the product or me unfortunatly.



I apprecaite the responses, although it's depressing to hear that they're more sevear than I thought they were. Maybe it would be better to invest in a professional correction with a paint meter?

 

[Dan]

What I'm reading from your post is that you aren't making a dent in anything. The pictures above show some deep scratches. The two seem to contradict.



It sounds like you've spent some serious time in spots. Perhaps as has been suggested, time to use a paint gauge and see what is going on before you get too low.

 

[imported_DetailDan]

Great example of why professional detailers charge top dollar for true paint correction and why it takes so long to perform correctly.



Was the whole car repainted, or just the bumper?

 

[SuperBee364]

CTSV, I totally feel your pain on the deep scratches. My car came with them from the new car lot. A place called Ground Effects in Canada was the company that installed the vinyl stickers on my car for Dodge. I have a few pictures somewhere of them removing a foot of snow off these vehicles with a push broom. That broom put some nasty straight line scratches straight down the roof and the hood of my car.



As much as I would like to completely remove them, I haven't. As Accumulator mentioned, it's too easy to thin your clear to the point that further polishing becomes down right dangerous to the clear coat. You may want to consider a one pass compounding and two pass polishing of the entire vehicle, and living with the results. You may be pleasantly surprised at how diminished looking the scratches will look afterward. In my case, they have become very hard to find to most people, but of course they're pretty visible to me.



If you just gotta get them out, you would probably be better off wet sanding the scratches rather than trying to compound them out. Just remember that you're removing clear coat that isn't easily replaced.

 

[CTSV]

Great example of why professional detailers charge top dollar for true paint correction and why it takes so long to perform correctly.



Was the whole car repainted, or just the bumper?

That's a whole different side-story that I could write pages about. In short though, the rear bumper was painted only.

 

[Accumulator]

With the M105? I've gone over a 2x2 section a few times now and while I admit my technique was improper the first few times, I have corrected it with the advice given; there are no results to show for, the scratches remain and are not diminshed even in the slightest, and there's so many of them it's hard to distinguish scratches from swirl marks, so I'm not sure if it even took swirl marks out...

The good news is that if you're not significantly diminishing the marring, then you're probably not significantly diminishing the clearcoat either



What size and type of pads? M105 will cut down to primer if you let it.



That 2' x 2' area that you read about all the time is a bit larger than I like to work and IMO that's not helping any.

I've collectively spent aprox 4-5hours on the hood- particularly in these sections alone. The adams product breaks down fine, I go over with several passes, clean my pads like I shoud, use high quality MF towels, use speed 5 or 6 as suggested, it simply doesn't put a dent in the clear- it doesn't haze up even slightly as I've seen SSHR do to cars on these forums. Worse, since the only comparison I have is a known hard clear-- the Audi, I'm not sure if it's the product or me unfortunatly.

With today's products, I don't consider my Audi/GM clears to be any huge challenge and I *DO* remember the days when it was a different story! Get some different pads and even if you do still spend 4-5 hours per panel at least you'll have some incredible results to show for it. Once the M105 has done the heavy lifting, maybe the Adams stuff will suffice for the follow up, or maybe you'll want to try something else.

I apprecaite the responses, although it's depressing to hear that they're more sevear than I thought they were. Maybe it would be better to invest in a professional correction with a paint meter?

Just be careful whom you trust...lots of "professionals" deserve those scare-quotes!



And really..while I'm as nutty-particular as the next Autopian, that "learn to live with it" is sage advice. In the real world, normally-driven cars simply don't stay perfect and you'll take the fun out of this stuff if you let minor flaws spoil your appreciation of the car. Even with my "special occasion" cars...'85 with 18K miles, '01 with fewer than that...there have been, uhm....incidents... resulting in unfortunate flaws that I simply have to live with. Hey, that's life.

 

[CTSV]

What size and type of pads? M105 will cut down to primer if you let it.

6" and 4" Adams Pads on the hood, 6" pads on most of the rest of the car which are a 3 step green>orange>white.

And really..while I'm as nutty-particular as the next Autopian, that "learn to live with it" is sage advice. In the real world, normally-driven cars simply don't stay perfect and you'll take the fun out of this stuff if you let minor flaws spoil your appreciation of the car. Even with my "special occasion" cars...'85 with 18K miles, '01 with fewer than that...there have been, uhm....incidents... resulting in unfortunate flaws that I simply have to live with. Hey, that's life.

I'll definitally give the car a good look over and remember that. What the goal honestly here is to correct it and then wrap the front-end and high-risk areas.

 

[Accumulator]

CTSV- Get some of the Meguiar's MF cutting pads to use for the heavy work, and then your Adams pads oughta do fine for the follow up.



And yeah...get it as good as is safe, get it wrapped, and then try to *NOT* look at it quite so critically from then on

 

[CTSV]

So, I've compiled a few things to pickup from amazon;



a good wash mitt-- the dodo wookie fist

a 32oz bottle of M205

4 LC white pads in 4 and 6.5" sizes

and 4 3/6" Meguiars cutting MF' pads.





The adams Fine machine polish did jewel the paint pretty nicely, will M205 on the white LC pads achieve the same effect? Or should I think about picking up something else to jewel it before adding my LSP?



I understand that there are mixed opinions on it's finishing ability and that it varry's depending on technique, the clear and pad selection, so suggestions based on GM and Audi Clears would be helpful here, my white adams pad is trashed, so I would need to invest another $50 into pads and product since I'm assuming using 2 products on the same before you clean with water and APC is a bad thing...

 

[Accumulator]

CTSV- The M205 finishes out fine for me on GM and Audi clear.



BUT...I seldom reach for it because its oils drive me nuts. I tried and tried to like the stuff, even have a gallon jug of it when my smaller bottle ran low, but I gotta say that I reach for something else most of the time. On those two paints I usually use 1Z High Gloss or something from Menzerna. FWIW, the Menzerna does sometimes finish out noticeably better than the M205 for me, but 99.9% of people would *NEVER* see the diff.



You know, I never seem to read much about the 1Z HG, but I really like the stuff. Maybe it's just me, but I find it both effective and *VERY* user-friendly.



And note that while some people get decent correction out of M205 by "pushing" its envelope with an aggressive pad, I consider it to be a finishing polish for use after something else has done all the real correction.



Eh, I bet I sound like I'm really bashing the M205 and I don't hate it or anything, I just ended up liking it less and less the more I used it. Besides the oils, maybe I just prefer diminishing-abrasive products for my finishing polishes :think: I dunno....:nixweiss



Wonder how you'll like that Wookie's Fist...



What *exactly* are you aiming to do/change/improve, I mean..as specifically as you can explain it?

 

[CTSV]

Wonder how you'll like that Wookie's Fist...

A lot better than what I'm using I hope.. I'm sure my current wash mitt has contributed significantly to the defects on the car now, even 2 bucket washing a panel at a time. It probally is a bit overboard, but I told myself making my own sun gun would make up for that

What *exactly* are you aiming to do/change/improve, I mean..as specifically as you can explain it?

poped the car into the sun, here's specificly what we're now looking at: Moderate to severe swirling, and there are still a good amount of RIDS all over the car . Essentially this will be my only car to truly try to mantain, and I plan on keeping the car for a long time. I can live with some of the RDS if necessary, the focus should be swirl and the lesser scratches removal, as it's becoming more noticeable.

The last picture is where I went over it with the product I have now, I had tried using it on RDS on the hood previsouly, so I tried it on acutal swirls this time.

2 passes with 4" orange pad and SR(swirl remover), -- supposed to be the compound/ could have tried the higher cut version of this if I wanted.

1 pass with 4" white pad and FMP(fine machine polish) -- supposed to be for jeweling, they advertise there's almost no cut to this.

americana LSP



It would appear that it has diminished the swirls very slightly, but left micro-marring behind and it's also marginally hazy on the fender lip. Or it might be the lighting, it's impossible to tell with so much flake going on.



I only need to correct it nicely once and then do mantiance after that. I have no brand-loyalty, M205 just seemed like something people use often around here and might work well with the 105 I already have.

 

[Accumulator]

A lot better than what I'm using I hope.. I'm sure my current wash mitt has contributed significantly to the defects on the car now, even 2 bucket washing a panel at a time...

There are a lot of inter-related factors...which wash medium with which technique and so on. FWIW, I can't wash marring-free with the conventional two-bucket method no matter what I use or how I go about it. The whole "rubbing the mitt against the paint, hoping the dirt will transfer to the mitt and not mar the paint" thing simply doesn't work for me. I have to employ a "dislodge and flush" approach; if my rinse water ends up dirty at the end of a wash (even with a filthy vehicle) then I'm very disappointed and I probably marred the paint.

poped the car into the sun, here's specificly what we're looking at...[pix and explanation]...

First off, on GM clear, two passes with your aggressive product isn't all that many, even with M105.



I'm not very good at evaluating stuff from pix, and once again there are a lot of things to consider, but let's see..



1) I'd go M105 (but see NOTEs below) on the MF cutting pad. Spritz with M34 before buff-off to minimize micromarring and don't let it flash off/dry before you buff it off. Keep the pad *VERY* clean, and I don't mean clean it after doing a whole panel. Ditto for the MF you buff it off with; remember that non-diminishing abrasive products *always* cut when moved against the paint.



Let the M105 correct the marring to the extent you want, replacing it with micromarring of its own.



Watch that you don't go overboard correcting that particular paint. If you really thin the clear it'll look lighter/more metallic in that area. Gee, guess how I know that



2) Use something (M205, 1Z HG, Menzerna) to remove the micromarring from the M105. Strip it clean (IPA, PrepWash, something...) so you can truly evaluate it, and do whatever's necessary to *really* see how things are (I needed two people, natural sunlight, and a whole lot of working at it for certain areas, just couldn't do it right with any of my lights).



Ya know, it was *that* paint that first got me thinking about the M205 oils being a huge PIA. And yeah, when you get your DIY SunGun (very cool, BTW!) on it just right the hazing from M105 can look really bad. As I said, tricky paint!



NOTE: I never get as nice a finish from M105 as other people. User-error I suppose, but I'm not gonna do a zillion corrections in this lifetime so maybe I'll never "master" the product. If I get nasty hazing from the M105 I just do an intermediate step with the milder Optimum Hyper Compound, which is *VERY* user-friendly, much more so than M105.



NOTE#2: Last time I did spot correction on an Audi I used UNO instead of M105 for the aggressive work, followed up with 1Z HG. Wow, liked it a lot more than I ever expected and will now reach for that first.

 

[CTSV]

Thanks for the suggestions! I was using their brand DS to buff-off residue with a good towel already, and I still have a gallon of the stuff left-over that I'll have to use up before going with something else.

Otherwise I suppose you agree 1Z HG on white pads seems like a good combination?

 

[Accumulator]

..Otherwise I suppose you agree 1Z HG on white pads seems like a good combination?

That oughta work fine, though I usually use it on either a Griot's orange or a finishing pad (when burnishing).

 

[Lowejackson]

Just to reiterate Accumulator's point, 2 passes with most compounds/polishes is not a lot. There are no doubt super skilled people who can do wonders with minimal work but the rest of us need to do a lot more passes

 

[CTSV]

Just to reiterate Accumulator's point, 2 passes with most compounds/polishes is not a lot. There are no doubt super skilled people who can do wonders with minimal work but the rest of us need to do a lot more passes

understood. I'll give it another try when the new pads come in. I knew I didn't see results previously with a lot more passes, after 2 I suppose I gave up on it and decided to finish so I could re-seal.

That oughta work fine, though I usually use it on either a Griot's orange or a finishing pad (when burnishing).

I could follow that response by another series of questions, but maybe it's better to say that there's no perfect solution and the same problem could be addressed in multiple ways? The shear product selection in this industry is overwhelming, so I think I may be overthinking this a lot. In all other aspects of the automotive industry there is a fraction of the product and brand choice, so it makes picking 'the best product and approach' easier.