"Industrial Fallout" -- What is it??

K

KiLO

New member
Hey all, for a while now I have had a ton of little tiny spots that look like rust on the rear of my car, and have tried many things to get rid of them. I tried claying, and it helps, but doesn't remove the spots all the way.



I got in touch with a local detailer called "Steves Detailing" (who are very friendly btw), and they classified my problem as "industrial fallout"...



So my question is... What exactly is industrial fallout, and how can we prevent such things?



Thanks!
 
Fallout is a term to refer to metal particles in the air- steel, iron, etc. It can come from a variety of places like the railways or factories What happens is the collected particles build up on your car and exposure to the rain and other elements cause them to rust and corrode the paint. Unfortunately prevention just means avoiding areas but if you live or commute in one of these areas I would make sure to clay when needed and keep a good sealant on the car.
 
Of course, the spots ARE rust from the oxidation of metallic (ferous) particles embeddd in the surface of the paint.



There are two primary ways to remove this:

A. Chemical decontamination of the surface (3 step chemical bath)

B. Clay bar.



Buffing the surface simply 'chops off' the particle, leaving the 'root', which will continue to rust.



Search for A-B-C system.



Jim
 
If it's on the rear of your car, it's something on the road surface that you're kicking up.



From your description, it sounds like it probably is iron based, which leaves figuring out what you're kicking up. Do you drive by a railyard or such? Park backed up to a metal shop? Grind things behind your car at home?



Industrial fallout is a generic term for anything nasty in the air that falls down and deposits on things. Around petrolium distilleries, it's oil, blast furnace areas its kisch, quaries it's silica. And so on, and so forth.



I don't think you've got a fallout problem because of where it's depositing on your vehicle.
 
Interesting...



I basically just drive 100 miles round trip to work, all on the 405 Freeway between Orange County and Los Angeles. I live near the beach in Orange County, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it.



I was actually talking to another MINI owner online, and they said that they heard of some MINI's having this issue and that it was actually a fault of the paint, so I'm going to talk to the dealership and see what they can tell me about it.



Anyway, thanks for all the good info, and anything else is appreciated.
 
The rear of the car is a low pressure area (we have 2 MINI's here at work) where there is a vacuum at speed. Stuff is getting picked up from the road (think semi-metallic brake pads) and is sitting on the back of the car, where it eventually embeds in the paint.
 
Hmmm..lots of cars these days have that awful black dust I wonder if a 3 step special wash like the A-B-C system should become a routine regimen. If so how often? Once a year? Quarterly even? Yet more detailing products to buy :rolleyes: :D
 
Bill D- I'm a pretty big fan of the ABC stuff, but I sure wouldn't use it all that often. I usually only use it once, on a new car's first detail.



You know how we say Dawn is too harsh for detailing? Well "A" is a *LOT* harsher than Dawn is. "B" is oxalic (sp?) acid, which is NOT good for glass and some other things. "C" is a decent, regular shampoo.



There was a thread a while back about a similar system from FinishKare that uses a different acid for the 2nd step, sounded promising.



But I sure dunno about using such harsh stuff on a regular basis. I *would* recommend using it in a case like KiLO's, though. Best to do whatever's necessary to get that stuff out of there before it becomes permanent. Then take some serious protective measures to keep such stuff from getting so embedded that it gets through the LSP to the paint.



I suppose in some cases frequent use of something like ABC might be justified, but still...erring on the side of caution and all that. Ever since I started using ABC upon delivery, I haven't had much trouble with rust blooms, nothing that clay can't handle.
 
I can speak to your question as to what constitutes "Industrial Fallout." I used to work in an old historical part of Milwaukee, WI. The building I worked in (over 100 years old) was surrounded by freeways, railroads, foundries and power plant smokestacks. Oh, I also forgot to mention that hundreds of seagulls would add their own pollution to the mix.



Cars in this area just didn't stand a chance. I was spending every weekend removing the weeks application of crud.



Then the fun really started as the building owner decided to hire a building restoration firm to spray Hydrofluoric acid on the old building exterior to clean (etch) the brick and mortar. Of course, they did this on some really windy days and hundreds of cars were sprayed. The stuff they were using was actually melting glass windshields. After a few calls to local TV stations and environmental agencies they decided to finish the restoration using a sand blaster. They followed this up by spraying some kind of silicone sealer on the brick and morter. This too, wound up on the cars.



Unfortunately, there were lots of people who drove by the building while they were spraying and even more who parked in a municipal lot adjacent to the building who never knew what had happened to their paint or windshields.



My opinions of a polymer sealant went up a lot during this time. Carnauba just was not able to offer protection as good as a sealant in this hostile environment.



I subsequently found out that Hydrofluoric acid is one of the strongest and most corrosive acids known and is a class 8 hazardous waste. For reference, nuclear waste is a class 9 hazardous waste.



I no longer work in that area but I often wonder what the long term effects on people who live and work in that pollution will be. It can't be good.
 
Accumulator said:


There was a thread a while back about a similar system from FinishKare that uses a different acid for the 2nd step, sounded promising.

Click to expand...



Yeah I became highly interested in that brand too. It's real reassuring to hear such drastic washing measures aren't needed so often. I'm also happy I don't see the justification to shell out an extra $85 (for the 3 wash system)or so on car wash :eek:
 
The Finish Kare system is actually not a harsh system to use. It is much safer to use than any other method including clay. It could actually be used on a daily basis without creating any damage to the paint finish or trim components. This was tested by the Automotive manufacturers.



Other systems, however can cause paint and trim damage.



After performing the Finish kare system on countless vehicles we have experienced Zero problems and nothing but complete satifaction.



A detailer I know back East that runs a high end shop uses the Finish Kare System on all their cars. The cars run between $100K to $1.5 million and the details car run from $2k-$5k.



The material cost per decontamination will range between $3-$5. Labor time much less than clay or other methods. The results are priceless.
 
A side note as to the origin of contamination. There are a lot of variables to be taken into consideration. The first being the origin of the vehicle (where Mfg), the method of transport from the factory, where the vehicle has been held in storage, where the dealership is located, where the vehicle travels. etc.



Cars that are transported by train have a higher likelyhood of contamination as well as vehicles that spend a lot of time near busy freeways, flight paths, or in heavily polluted or industrial areas.



A vehicle acts like a magnet (-) attracting ferrous metal particles (+) to the surface. With the help of environmental conditions they begin to corrode into the surface of the paint.



Although contamination is most common on the horizonal surfaces it can occur pretty anywhere. In the last couple weeks I have seen 3 new Audi A-8's with rust stains across the entire lower half of the body front to back.
 
Has anyone read through the Finish Kare website?



Finish Kare



When I worked on the labels for the new Meguiar's Velocity Liquid Polymer Mold Release and Mold Sealer products, I had to research other companies involved in the mold release wax business, this of course led to Finish Kare as well as a few others...



Check out this link,



http://www.fk1usa.com/brochures.htm#



And then click on the bottom, center brochure and page through to the second page...



2704finishcare-med.jpg




Meguiar's came out with the first Mold Release wax in approximately 1950 or 1951, about the same time that #16 Professional Paste Wax came out. This was when Dow Corning introduced the glass fiber strands and a way of mixing them with polyester resin to make Fiberglas. Before the 1950's, all boats were made from predominantly wood or metal. After 1950, Fiber glass boats started a revolution in the boating industry. We also saw the introduction of fiberglass cars, i.e. the most well-known... the Corvette.



Just some interesting trivia...



Mike
 
TLL said:
The Finish Kare system is actually not a harsh system to use. It is much safer to use than any other method including clay. It could actually be used on a daily basis without creating any damage to the paint finish or trim components. This was tested by the Automotive manufacturers.



Other systems, however can cause paint and trim damage.



After performing the Finish kare system on countless vehicles we have experienced Zero problems and nothing but complete satifaction.



A detailer I know back East that runs a high end shop uses the Finish Kare System on all their cars. The cars run between $100K to $1.5 million and the details car run from $2k-$5k.



The material cost per decontamination will range between $3-$5. Labor time much less than clay or other methods. The results are priceless.
Click to expand...



Fallout is definately not a nice thing, fortunately where I work and travel around is relatively safe but on occasions last year I travelled 100's of kilometres around the country and the trunk, rear bumper and quarter panels were attacked by fallout. Most of the time it was very minor but one time the entire rear bumper had turned from galaxy blue color to red. Pretty well clogged with the stuff. I got it off but you have to use medium pressure scrubbing to get it off



For a while now I have been using Car Chem ACIDET fallout remover which is in powder form which you dilute with water in a 10 litre bucket. To make sure this stuff doesn't dry out while washing, I add 20ml of shampoo to the bucket before filling with warm water. I have a special sponge that does an excellent job of removing the little red dots. It's relatively safe but you must polish ASAP after washing the car with it. From now on though I will be claying afterwards to make sure that every little dot is removed. Malco make a gel form Oxalic acid fallout remover and I soon will be trying it but I would like to know if there are any other, non scrubbing treatments for this problem. Ever since I have been using Bodyseal paint sealant and two coats of Klasse SG on top, the occurence of fallout has diminished but a few times there would be a blob of it on the rear quarter panel. I'll be getting a fine clay magic clay bar next week to use when this happens as I don't want to wash my car with ACIDET when there is only a tiny blob on the car. With bodyseal, klasse sg and synthetic & carnuba wax on my car, the paint is extremely safe. I've seen a few dots here and there and because my paint is so smooth now, the fallout cannot penetrate that easy and most of the time needs only a quick wipe with a QD and cloth and they come off. It sure does embed itself very deeply on non protected cars however. I've seen new cars with the roof covered in rust dots all the way through the paint.



A friend of mine who is a car cleaner reckons that the ceramic and teflon ingredients in Du Pont's new Paint protection product really stops the fallout from sticking



Don't think there would be anything that would solve it 100% though.
 
SVR said:
ff



Malco make a gel form Oxalic acid fallout remover and I soon will be trying it but I would like to know if there are any other, non scrubbing treatments for this problem.
Click to expand...






I would avoid products that make use of oxalic acid. They will soften the paint causing damage. They can also cause damage to the trim components and glass. This is something that has been pointed out by the auto manufacturers.
 
Mike Phillips said:




Meguiar's came out with the first Mold Release wax in approximately 1950 or 1951, about the same time that #16 Professional Paste Wax came out. This was when Dow Corning introduced the glass fiber strands and a way of mixing them with polyester resin to make Fiberglas. Before the 1950's, all boats were made from predominantly wood or metal. After 1950, Fiber glass boats started a revolution in the boating industry. We also saw the introduction of fiberglass cars, i.e. the most well-known... the Corvette.



Just some interesting trivia...



Mike
Click to expand...





Mike,



I'm not sure, but wasn't Mr Floyd L Meguiar and his father still part of the Meguiar's Company throughout the 1950's working as chemists developing products.





:wavey
 
TLL said:
Mike,



I'm not sure, but wasn't Mr Floyd L Meguiar and his father still part of the Meguiar's Company throughout the 1950's working as chemists developing products.



:wavey
Click to expand...



To be honest, I don't know.



That's all the information I have...



Mike
 
TLL said:
I would avoid products that make use of oxalic acid. They will soften the paint causing damage. They can also cause damage to the trim components and glass. This is something that has been pointed out by the auto manufacturers.
Click to expand...



Well when I use Acidet, the glass and trim doesn't get touched with it during the wash process. Don't know whether it would soften the paint but in the 12 months I have used it, I have had no trouble whatsoever. Clay or Liquid Clay would be a much safer alternative and if a car is only lightly coated with fallout, that's the method I am going to use but sometimes there's just no other choice than to go with the wash.



Still would like to find any other fallout removal products that are safer.
 
SVR said:
Well when I use Acidet, the glass and trim doesn't get touched with it during the wash process. Don't know whether it would soften the paint but in the 12 months I have used it, I have had no trouble whatsoever. Clay or Liquid Clay would be a much safer alternative and if a car is only lightly coated with fallout, that's the method I am going to use but sometimes there's just no other choice than to go with the wash.



Still would like to find any other fallout removal products that are safer.
Click to expand...





The Finish Kare Product previously mentioned by Accumulator would be the safe product that you are looking for. It is factory tested with millions of applications under its belt.



These products have been used extensively in Australia over the years to solve some real nasty problems with paint contamination at the Ford or Mercury Plants. One of the old timers there told me that it saved Ford 10's of millions of dollars in paint damage.



They would also apply 218 Poly Wipe to every car off the line before they shipped them state side to prevent paint contamination. Thats spending a buck to save several thousand.



That said I am not real sure of the availability in AU.
 
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