Increase Agressiveness

[Rx79394]

So, I spent last week polishing most of my car's passenger side for the first time ever. I have yet to tackle the driver's side, and plan on starting back up. I am a little bit worried on what this used car has been through at the used car dealership. I have included a link to my post in the newcomer's section which contains some pictures of my work so far.



However, before I start to work on the driver side, if it turns out to be anything like the passenger, I will still need a more of an aggressive set-up.



My combo that I used was the following (4-5 minutes of polishing with each set-up/panel):

o Griot's Machine Polish 2 w/CCS Orange Pad

o Griot's Machine Polish 3 w/CCS White Pad

o Griot's Sealant w/CCS Red Pad



What recommendations would you all have to increase the overall cutting ability?

 

[Accumulator]

Rx79394- It's been a while since I've used the GG Machine Polishes (maybe they've changed them, I was using what I think was v3.0 ), but they didn't cut all that great for me with regard to serious correction. Even MP#1 was pretty weak despite being rather gritty.



Using the GG 6" I've done well with Meguiar's MF Cutting Disks and also, but not *as* well with regard to being time/effort-efficient, with both generations of Meguiar's Maroon Foam Cutting Pads. The latter work surprisingly better for me than my other foam cutting pads for some reason :think:



For product, I'd use one of these: Meguiar's M101 or M105, 3D's new "Cut" compound or their Uno (expect to work a bit longer with that one). I really would limit your choice to one of those and I bet the Meguiar's stuff or the Cut would be best.



Note it's gonna take a *lot* longer than you put in previously, even with the proper pads/products. To be paintfully blunt, five minutes per section (not per panel, but per little bitty area you work at a time and I don't work the usual 2' x 2' either) is nothing. NO THING :grinno: You could spend longer even if you started with a rotary and something terribly aggressive!



Choose an area to test, and make it about a foot square. Get your new pad/product combo and some IPA (or better yet, Eraser or PrepWash) to clear away any concealing oils, set up some good lighting...and go at that little area over and over and over again until the marring is corrected to your satsifaction, or you start to worry about clearcoat thickness, or you simply say "enough already!".



See what that leaves you with, then follow up with the GG MP...maybe just MP#3 but you might need MP#2 to clear up any compounding artifacts.

 

[IHA Mark]

I agree that product choice, and time spent is probably your biggest problem here. Sometimes it can take multiple passes even with a very aggressive pad and product to get the desired result.

 

[togwt]

Pad Dependency



Any abrasive polish and pad combination is only as fine as its coarsest component. All abrasive polishes are ‘foam pad and applied pressure dependant’ as far as their paint correction abilities are concerned. Any abrasive / pad combination is reliant upon its most abrasive component.



If we consider the Lake Country Mfg (LC) White foam (50 PPI) polishing pad as the baseline; any polish used will derive help from the abrasive abilities of the foam. Then consider the LC Blue (70 PPI) finishing pad has no abrasive ability and will contribute nothing to the cutting capability of a polish.

What is derived from this is that a polishes abrasive ability can be ‘fine tuned’ by using different combinations (abrasiveness) of polish and foam (the same thing is true of wool pads) and of course differing the amount of downward pressure (10-15 Lbs is the usual range) applied will also have an effect on the abrasives capability



Different pad / product combinations (least abrasive pad / polish first)



a) Base pad / product (least abrasive pad / product) if this combination does not provide the desired results, increase the aggressiveness of the technique or product selection.

b) Step-up 1 - using the same pad with a more abrasive product

c) Step-up II – use a less abrasive pad and the same product as used in step-up I

d) Step-up III- using the same pad with a more abrasive product



As can been ascertained from the above the total abrasive ability of a polish / foam pad combination is subject to many variables, the polishes abrasive ability is just the starting point



Factors that increase abrasion ability

• Increased speed (Velocity)

• Increased pressure (Pad compression)

• Use smaller pad (Reduced surface Area)

• Using a firmer pad (Increases surface resistance and kinetic energy (heat transfer)

• Using a slower panel transition speed (Increased surface contact time)

• Reduce the working area



The key to the polishing process is to know how the paint will react with each pad / polish combination you consider using. You must know your product and what its capabilities are before using it. This is why a ‘test’ spot is so important.



The factors that affect the outcome -speed, friction (kinetic energy) applied pressure, foam pad actual surface contact area, pad grit number (abrasive ability) amount of surface lubrication available, the surface area and heat conductivity of material



All pads have a performance cycle, meaning you will get the desired results only to a certain point on that curve. The point of declining performance is typically reached by polish / compound pad being overloaded with product; you should always be able to see the individual cells or texture of the pad, with proper, regular cleaning pad overload can be avoided.



Clean (or replace) you pads frequently: pads are easy to clean; the slotted pad face actually makes it easy to clean. Do not use the same pad to apply differing products as cross contamination will reduce the effectiveness or completely negate their purpose altogether. A new or freshly cleaned pad must be used with each type of car care product. It is imperative that pads are cleaned or replaced throughout the polishing session; abraded paint residue will produce an inordinate amount of scouring, or hazing.

 

[pwaug]

Another thought: You might want to consider switching to 5.5" Flat pads as they are considered to offer the most correction ability if you're going to stick with foam pads. Microfiber pads will offer the most correction ability with any product.

 

[Accumulator]

... Microfiber pads will offer the most correction ability with any product.

Well, much as I like the MF Cutting Disks, I'll say that *wool* cutting pads probably offer greater corrective ability. Gotta choose 'em carefully though.

 

[pwaug]

Well, much as I like the MF Cutting Disks, I'll say that *wool* cutting pads probably offer greater corrective ability. Gotta choose 'em carefully though.

Oops! Forgot about wool. Guess I was thinking mainly of "consumer/diy" type products.

 

[Accumulator]

Oops! Forgot about wool. Guess I was thinking mainly of "consumer/diy" type products.

Yeah I bet most non-pros/non-autopians lump all wool pads in the "bad old products" category. Note that Cyclo sells them though, and the LC PFW ones come to mind.



I bet I only thought of them because this summer I broke out my Cyclo wool (I think they're same as Edge wool pads) for some spots on the latest Crown Vic...areas that I probably shoulda just wetsanded.

 

[Rx79394]

Yeah I bet most non-pros/non-autopians lump all wool pads in the "bad old products" category. Note that Cyclo sells them though, and the LC PFW ones come to mind.

Well since I am new, I will tell you my immediate thought. I have always been scared to try wool. It is very intimidating for some reason. In addition, this what I often see the carwashes on the side of the road who make your vehicle look worse after they touch it then before. I think that is what prevents me from going to wool at this time.

To be paintfully blunt, five minutes per section (not per panel, but per little bitty area you work at a time and I don't work the usual 2' x 2' either) is nothing. NO THING

Well, I would like to clarify, I meant 5 minutes per section not panel. Which is still nothing.







So I just made a purchase yesterday and here I where I am at. I ordered some 105/MF Cutting Disks/Eraser Prep.



I will give my car more attention this weekend since it is a long 4 day. I am trying to decide if I should just finish the other half of the car with the Machine Polishes so it will be even with the other side or just go with the new products. In addition, it seems like this set-up will be very aggressive, should I be extremely careful in correcting or for the most part, be relatively safe?

 

[Accumulator]

... I have always been scared to try wool. It is very intimidating for some reason. In addition, this what I often see the carwashes on the side of the road who make your vehicle look worse after they touch it then before. I think that is what prevents me from going to wool at this time...

The carwash thing isn't really analogous; consider that sheepskin...a type of wool...mitts work fine when washing. But yeah...I'm OK with wool being an "experts-only" option and I was just mentioning it for the sake of discussion.

Well, I would like to clarify, I meant 5 minutes per section not panel. Which is still nothing.

OK, that's better, but yeah...it's pretty amazing how long this stuff can take.

So I just made a purchase yesterday and here I where I am at. I ordered some 105/MF Cutting Disks/Eraser Prep...it seems like this set-up will be very aggressive, should I be extremely careful in correcting or for the most part, be relatively safe?

It *is* much more aggressive, but IMO the real danger is in *your* overdoing it, as opposed to the products. You know... the dangers of "hey, this is working great! Just a little bit more and it'll be absolutely perfect!" Keep striving for "much better" as opposed to "Autopian perfecion" and you should be fine. Just take it easy on on edges/corners and maybe also on plastic pieces.

 

[chrisguga]

Tuf Buf 5" black wool pads work amazingly well! They cut harder and finish as well or better than MF cutting discs. I certainly don't consider them a "pros only" product by any means!

 

[SVR]

Don't be afraid of wool pads fella's

I started with rotary and wool fifteen years ago and still use it occasionally. but I do not correct with foam - period



wool cuts cooler than foam so is safer and on a dynabrade 61375 or 85 in RO mode will finish better than rotary and wool and correct quicker too



even if I use rotary and wool in situations where the paint prefers the shearing action of a rotary, I never go beyond 1200rpm. most of the time I'm at 600 to 1000 with half an inch or one inch per second arm speed and pressure and jewelling at 900, 750 then 600 rpm



however that is where my love for wool ends. Cutting foams and wool pads are old technology and there are over a dozen newer buffing pad materials available now with so many different types of backing plates for the dynabrade and other random and forced rotation tools with 5/16ths thread type to do whatever you want. retexturise the orange peel, remove serious defects and jewel like crazy



if you want to be more aggressive, step up from foam or even wool to microfibre with a random orbital (dynabrade, PC, Makita b06040/6030, metabo sxe450, festool rotex etc)



if that doesn't work, go to surbuf pads and after that, then switch polishes.

I always believe in using the strongest pads with very rigid backing plates and a polish or two at the same time, no compounds



my particular favourite combo for correction is using the makita mega thin, rock hard random orbital backing plate on my dynabrade 61375 and 85 heads with a surbuf, rayon, denim, velvet and especially microfibre pads



surbuf, microfibre, black foam is a cool combo as is wool via dynabrade ro or forced, then microfibre polish pad or cutting pad in RO mode and then rotary to jewel with foams



microfibre and surbuf are two of the most exciting pad materials we've ever had with incredibly diverse uses and potential



one step details with microfibre polishing pads and Xpert Ultra and High Tech or Ultra and Jewelling polish at the same time.

effectively cutting, polishing and jewelling at the same time with the one pad



Sure foam and wool still work but I am a "NEVER STAND STILL" detailer with a hunger to keep moving forward and not stick with the same pads and tools year after year. That is boring



Cannot wait to test Leather buffing pads in early 2013. More yet to come