I'm a beginner Detailing in the sun, can I use Menzerna

If you're not going to be carrying it around I'd probably go for a 10x15. It will give you an appreciable amount of additional coverage.
 
SpoiledMan said:
:rolleyes: :lol You like to harp on things eh?
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Not trying to harp, just trying to understand. You asked who you are going to believe, and I'm not sure. You knocked somebody for believing a manufaturer, but your trusting one yourself. I'm not even trying to start anything with you at all, just pointing out your logic (and one I agree with, I don't trust manufacturers either).
 
SpoiledMan said:
But it was fine for you to call me a shill?
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No, it was completely wrong, and I manned up and apologized.



mikebai1990 said:
TH0001, I'm curious about your statement that products with lubricating oils have some fillers in them. But then since Optimum Polish lubricates so well, does that mean that it fills more than it corrects? I wouldn't necessary think so...
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I think you misunderstood my point (or I didn't express it clearly) but I believe that Optimum, 3M, Meguiars, Menzerna, ect... all correct finishes. I don't have a lot of experience with optimum, but the act of "filling" isn't necessary done on purpose.



Each polish uses a different lubricant (in this case I believe Menzerna is using a type of wax, not like carnuaba, but a polishing wax like parrifin) that is difficult to remove, where as others such the Perfect 3000 polishes use a mineral oil that wipes off very easily and cleanly. These lubricants can act to fill.



Its not a bad thing at all, you just have to realize that it could happen.





As far as Zaino, Zaino bonds fine to clean paint, this is known. It does have a difficult time bonding to contaminated paints, so the question is, if Menzerna wipes away cleanly, then why can a bonding issue exist? This doesn't happen all the time, but can happen on softer paints, and certain GM clear coats. However, a lot of the guys who use similar products and polishes talk, and I have spoken with them and found this to be true.



Menzerna orginally stated that the SRC polishes where ment to be used only with MB cerma-clear paints, but could be used on some other paints as well. Maybe part of the reason is because of the way the lubricant can adhere to certain paints and become difficult to remove?



I think these type of issues are they types of things that should be discussed here, but instead people get so defensive if you "attack" a product they use they start defending it, and this occurs with a lot of products I use. We could all learn more here (myself included) if we would listen to other people's opinions instead of bashing eacht other (myself included at times).



The goal here is to all learn from each other so we can push results to the limits.



Unless I'm shilling Menzerna or 3M, I guess that idea is blown. I talk to a lot of different people that are always "developing things" and ask for my opinions. Until I find something works better then Menzerna or the new 3M then I'll stay put, but it doesn't mean I won't try to learn as much as possible!
 
Menzerna orginally stated that the SRC polishes where ment to be used only with MB cerma-clear paints, but could be used on some other paints as well. Maybe part of the reason is because of the way the lubricant can adhere to certain paints and become difficult to remove?
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For me this issue has been clearly defined as days over 75 degrees. Cooler than that and they preform flawlessly on the same cars.



<shrug>
 
Quite interesting thread! I remember months ago doing heavy research on 3.02 with top pros in the UK. They all say it's a hate/love relationship with po85rd3.02 (aka SIP), but they all still reach for it everytime as I myself do too always.



To find out what is the real lubricant in onlySIP is tough and even Menzerna will not tell what it has cause it is their secret. I know for fact I have seen guys in the UK that are true experts and have emailed them back and forth discussing 3.02. A lot of them state that it does have some sort of wax (not carnuba or wax you put on your car wax), but a base "wax type" lube emulsion that holds the razor sharp abrasives and makes them work evenly without scouring the finish while leaving a crystal bright gloss. Pretty intelligent if you ask me.



While I am not sure if this is true or not... I was just told by some real experts... The bottom line is it just needs to be wiped down with alcohol and only alcohol! I know Menzerna has a special spray out now that removes the residue for this purpose just to check your work before you seal.



I then talked to another expert and told him I was using prep sol to wipe down and he said to use alcohol instead. I asked why, but he said to just use alcohol.



So, months ago my buddy Chris has a black harley that has some deep scratches on it, but they are fixable. So I use 3.02 on an orange pad via rotary and the follow with 106. The finish comes out perfect and looks brand new again and thought it was easy. So before I seal, I grab the prep sol and do a wipedown and it looks super. As I remember in the back of my head to use alcohol, I grab that and give it a wipedown and right before my eyes all the scratches reapear, but they were so very mild and were very hard to see, but were there. I was baffled that prep sol would not take off the oils, but alcohol did. Makes no sense to me at all. I hit the bike again with the same proces and do a prep sol wipedown and could not find anything. I then did a alcohol wipedown and bang, they were so very hard to see, but they were there. This was the first time I have ever been baffled over something like this.



I just ended up grabbing 3M 3000 series extra cut compound on an orange pad and then use 3.02 as a middle polish and then 106ff, and then even hit it with Ultrafina. I was very determined at this point.:LOLOL So I do a prep sol wipe down just for the heck of it and nothing....I then do a alcohol wipedown and nothing.



I am actually using a body shop grade alcohol that a body shop gave me and I am not sure what it is, but I will find out for sure.



So I have used SIP on nearly 150 cars or more and have done alcohol wipedowns and have never had much of a problem, except for certain black vehicles.



I would not technically call them fillers, but I think it's more of lubrication that gets bonded to the finish. They might act as fillers on certain black paints, but were never intended for this purpose. You just have to make sure you do a good wipedown with alcohol.



My personal conclusion

SIP/3.02 is a great polish and is probably one of the best when it works right. I know it does not like the cold or dampness and can make the rotary run REALLY hot at sometimes with certain paints. It works best on newer paints at removing light to mild scratches while leaving a great looking surface that is swirl free. On more than mild scratches or on blacks/ darker colors I will use PG or 3m extra cut compound, as I know these remove scratches quicker and faster with ease and no chances of ever coming back cause they are gone.



I also do use the new 3m system with ultrafina with SUPERB results also and never had one issue yet. The 3m compound does has it's minor flaws just like everything else, but gives superb results if you are an expert.



I know a bunch of guys in the UK have been using there version of 3m polishes with great success at correction. I even know Paul Dalton uses 3m 80349 (SRC polish) for all of his corrections too.



I still always reach for 3.02/SIP about 80% of the time. I just always make sure I have backup just in case it does not work, so I carry literally 30 bottles of different correction products just to make sure.



What it all comes down to is.... All paints are not created equal!



This information is from what I gathered and also have a thousand hours of use with SIP. I am on my third bottle:spot and will still continue to buy it. I like the love/hate relationship:rolleyes:



Thank you!

Ryan
 
mikebai1990 said:
TH0001, I'm curious about your statement that products with lubricating oils have some fillers in them. But then since Optimum Polish lubricates so well, does that mean that it fills more than it corrects? I wouldn't necessary think so...
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i myself have had major problems with OP. I work it forever, and within a couple of days, the holograms will come back. looks smooth as hell after im done with it tho. maybe a lot of you guys dont get to see the work you did a few days/weeks/months later?
 
Rydawg, that post had great info in it, thank you very much.



It's very reassuring to hear that even the pros have that odd problem getting 3.02 to work correctly. :)
 
Grouse said:
I have used ppg tar and wax remover to remove sip and 106 before. Both after use in shade on a 95 degree day. There was no evidence of fillers. There was evidence that sip and 106 did not break down well. This cause marring as i wiped off the panel. I will bet dollars to donuts the re-occurrence of marring is simply due to poor wash habits or dry wiping. I know of customers of a competitor that spend literally 800-1500 per detail that will dry wipe a car at a concurs. Then ask why there are swirls and what fillers were used.



As for menz having any kind of effect for filling i simply have not seen it. As for zaino not bonding well. again, outside of my pervue as i simply don't have a need for zaino. It is not unreasonable to think that menz made their products to bond with menz sealant product, not zaino. The issue is not menz but zaino, as they are primarily a sealant company. They should make their product well enough that it will adhere to any well prepped paint.



Now down to asking if you are shilling.



You made vague references to a new product that x person was formulating. Saying



Now preface that with people who have been caught shilling. Why not just come out and say it. One possible reason is the person is known to the members and staff here. That was my point.





You can be as mad as you want, I simply asked. If the answer is damning that is on you not me.
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I personally think your actions and comments toward Todd are very bitter and harsh. I read this whole thread and I have no idea where you think he is shilling.



I always talk to different companies on developing compounds and polishes and try to find out what is coming out and if they need a tester...does that make me a shill...NO! He is like me, he wants to know what is in what and what makes it work and why sometimes it does not work. A great detailer is a person who ask companies questions reguarding what is in the stuff and actually what makes it work. Product knowledge is the best way to know how stuff works.



It seems like you have this thing against Zaino and it's users from the comments you made above. Some people are just very passionate about their work and demand top shelf products.



I talk to Todd from time to time and he is very knowledgable and is very passionate for his work and the products he uses. I know he spends a fortune on everything he gets. He also does a ton of exotics and is very well respected by his clients and makes a fortune. :woot:



He is such a nice guy he even offered to pay for my plane ticket to have me come down for a week to do 12 Ferraris and lambos for a big event.



I just think jumping down his throat and making wrong bold statements like that were uncalled for. I am just baffled by your statements.



I remember I was one of the first people to try SIP and loved it and then PM'd all the top pro's about this. I felt like I was the spoke's person for Menzerna. Did that make me a shill? NOPE! I was just giving great product advice.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Interesting that you wait til now to mention it.
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It's not that I waited till now... I just did not feel the need to start a thread like this and get everyone all rowled up over. It all started with a few people who pd'd me with minor issues. The wierd thing it was all with black cars. What it all comes down to is it just does not have enough grunt for certain black paints.



I have even asked some pros here and they even said the same thing, but just used something else with more correction, so in reallity it was not a major issue with the product itself, but more due to the extra cut that was needed.
 
I dunno, if it's hiding results and alcohol in specific makes them reappear and others share the same views/experiences it seems like the best idea would be to offer the information so that others are aware that there's the potential to get "burned." We are here to share information right?
 
I do not believe the statements being made in this thread about menzerna leaving anything behind. I am far from a huge menzerna user, I own one product from menzerna ( I really like optimum for rotary work, no fillers and great lubrication compared to most menz which dust and are less lubricated) and that is 106ff. However, if you want a polish that leaves an oil and wax free surface, that is the one.



How am I so sure? #1 even the most picky of sealants bond to it, an #2 do the squeak test on your paint (run your finger over your paint and see if you hear a squeak, if you do not then there is some sort of protection be it QD, oil, wax, sealant etc..) after polishing with 106ff, it will squeak.



Even if you just use a QD your paint will pass the squeak test (meaning it will not squeak, something is there) but after 106ff, yep, squeaks. So that to me means that if 106ff is leaving anything behind, it is so minimal that it is less than what even a QD leaves behind. Is my logic wrong? If you think it is, try it for yourself.
 
Reflectionz said:
i myself have had major problems with OP. I work it forever, and within a couple of days, the holograms will come back. looks smooth as hell after im done with it tho. maybe a lot of you guys dont get to see the work you did a few days/weeks/months later?
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Well I use OP on my own car as well as customers and have not had this issue.



Perhaps you need to shake it more to get the abrasives mixed in? I really don't know and I am sorry to hear that, I love OP.
 
ron231 said:
I do not believe the statements being made in this thread about menzerna leaving anything behind. I am far from a huge menzerna user, I own one product from menzerna ( I really like optimum for rotary work, no fillers and great lubrication compared to most menz which dust and are less lubricated) and that is 106ff. However, if you want a polish that leaves an oil and wax free surface, that is the one.



How am I so sure? #1 even the most picky of sealants bond to it, an #2 do the squeak test on your paint (run your finger over your paint and see if you hear a squeak, if you do not then there is some sort of protection be it QD, oil, wax, sealant etc..) after polishing with 106ff, it will squeak.



Even if you just use a QD your paint will pass the squeak test (meaning it will not squeak, something is there) but after 106ff, yep, squeaks. So that to me means that if 106ff is leaving anything behind, it is so minimal that it is less than what even a QD leaves behind. Is my logic wrong? If you think it is, try it for yourself.
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Yes your logic is wrong. I have, as well as others, have noticed swirls/holograms reappearing after 3 weeks to several months.



Again, people would rather argue, then listen. Great, you haven't experienced this, I'm happy. Instead of listening and learning potential problems, you (not an attack, your certainly not the only one) would rather defend your product.



Besides, even the most picky sealants will bond? You admitted you hate Zaino so many times its not funny, which probably the most picky sealant out there. How many times have you used Zaino over 106ff? How many of those customers are repeat customers, that you follow up with 1-2 weeks. What have you specificly noted in terms of durability degradation or appearance/durabilty when compared to normal degredation/durability?



I have such extensive knowledge with using both products together, that I feel that I have the background to make an informed judgement on the issue. This is a problem that a lot of Zaino users encounter (but nobody talks about on here) when using Menzerna polishes.



Its funny, but if somebody starts a Zaino thread (think TigerMike's CS durabilty thread) people jump on there and use it to knock Zaino. These are the people who attack the brand loyalists of the product, even the brand loyalist are saying they never had the problem. These same people who act the same way when a product they use doesn't work for everybody as well. So they knocking one person for being "blind" to a products faults, while they turn around and do the same thing.



Honestly, if I am going to get attacked, or even start arguements, because I express my opinions about a product, then I will just stick to posting click and brags and fore go sharing my experiences. It really doesn't matter anyways, because posting an opinion on the board that goes against everybody elses, or having a different experience then anybody else, only gets you attacked.



These are just detailing products, and are nothing more than a means to an end, but some people take different observations like personal attacks.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Interesting that you wait til now to mention it.
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Ryan told me about this months ago, I'm not sure if you are questioning the valditiy of his statement or asking why he did infact wait?



As for waiting so long to call it out, because I am calling it out right now, because I think its important to for us to help, and I am taking a beating on this thread. This pack mentality is probably why a lot of honest discussion's never happen on this board.
 
I'm not familiar with Menzerna, but what TH0001 and Rydawg is saying seems to make some sense. I don't see anyone else explaining their logic other than trusting the manufacturer.



Meguiar's says that NXT is their most durable sealant and goes from beading to sheeting action. I personally don't buy into that BS. Manufacturers don't always give a reason or even let you know about revisions of products. Why would they admit their product has a fault? Every manufacturer will tell you their product is the best. So if they get feedback from users about certain problems occurring during certain situations, it would make sense that they would work on their formulation without ever acknowledging there is a problem. Then they just put a label that says "New & Improved" so the public will just think this stuff is even better than before, not ever knowing why it had to be improved in the first place. If something was perfect it wouldn't have to be improved, right?



Not to mention it wouldn't make any sense that he was shilling for some other polish company considering both him and Rydawg use Menzerna in their C&B's. I'd rather read interesting discussions like these than some stupid truce agreement started by a zealot or even an almost 30 page thread just for a jar of overpriced wax that has yet to arrive.
 
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