I have a friend that seriously underestimates the power of a PC...help me get my poin

[wannafbody]

You can cut a tree down with a penknife but is it the best choice:nervous2:

 

[BigJimZ28]

I think we are talking about two diferent things here



can a PC remove defects?(what the OP is asking)

YES no doubt about it



is it the best way to remove them, the fastest way



NO







defects can be removed by hand! (ask Scottwax he polished by hand for years)

but it id way too much work for most people

 

[smokinfastlegen]

I guess my g100 is a freak of nature cause i removed 2000 grit wetsand on the hood of my legend. Took me like 3 applications of M83 with a yellow pad, but I dont have wet sand marks in my hood.

 

[Alex Boyce]

I agree with BigJim, it can remove defects but it is by no means the most efficient or best way to do so.



Good job Smoknfastlegend, thats pretty good to remove 2000 grit marks from your car with a G100, but keep in mind that not every clear coat is not the same or will act the same using your combo. Also some people on autopia don't look for a solution that would take 3 passes to clear the problem many people here want 1 and done type solutions.

 

[Kevin Brown]

I can't join this discussion to the degree I'd like to just now, but I REALLY want to! :wall



Upon my return from SEMA I've got other time consuming things to deal with (including another extended out-of-town gig)...

Good thing this forum has a lot of staying power!



This has the potential to be one of the best threads ever on Autopia if it remains a discussion...



I'll go on the record as saying this:

Based on my own experiences, a random-orbital can match or outperform a rotary.

That statement applies to final polishing and serious defect removal.



Of course, there's a bunch of variables to discuss, and therein lies the fun of these discussions!



I will agree that for fast cutting of very heavy defects, a rotary is hard to beat.

 

[David Fermani]

I'll go on the record as saying this:

Based on my own experiences, a random-orbital can match or outperform a rotary.

That statement applies to final polishing and serious defect removal.



I will agree that for fast cutting of very heavy defects, a rotary is hard to beat.

For clarification - define "serious defect removal" and "very heavy defects" and give us more feedback/senarios on how a RO can "outperform" a rotary.

- I guess my g100 is a freak of nature cause i removed 2000 grit wetsand on the hood of my legend. Took me like 3 applications of M83 with a yellow pad, but I dont have wet sand marks in my hood.

The picture you posted doesn't show much other than a reflection shot. Even if there were defects(even prior to sanding) still there, it wouldn't have been picked up with that style of shot.

 

[smokinfastlegen]

I wish i had taken shots right after the wetsanding, but that seems to be the only direct hood shot I have taken of my coupe after that. The only thing I can say to back up that image is that prior to polishing, of that hood, I had no reflection, but my word means nothing without a picture.

 

[imported_Picus]

There is a difference between "can the pc do something?" and "is it the best at doing it?". Can it remove marring? Yes. Is it the quickest/most efficient way? No.



I have plenty of pics on my site of cars compounded with a PC. Pics aren't worth crap, so I guess you'll have to trust me. If anyone wants to see me remove swirls with a PC just grab me a PC, a swirly car, and your video camera.



In case people do believe pics, some cars I did with a PC from a few years ago. (a GTA In Detail a a a )

 

[imported_rydawg1]

I've been doing this for close to 20 years and I have been known for serious correction and some of the most amazing precise quality finishes. I always strive for 100% optical clarity with no fillers, oils, glazes, silicones, etc. I only use certain select polishes for the abrasive factors.



With that being said as a credibility standpoint for some who do not know me, a PC will NEVER match the power, cut, or precision of a rotary polisher. A pc will give you a safer swirl free finish from a person with no experience. With certain polishes via a pc, they are designed to chemically fill. For a newbie a PC is the perfect choice for safety.



A rotary is not for everyone and it all depends on who is using it to get the full potential.

 

[imported_Picus]

I definitely agree with that. I just disagree with someone saying you can't cut with a PC. You can cut with a $10 simoniz orbital. Cut well? Probably not, but cut? Yes.

 

[Todd@RUPES]

About wetsanding mark removal, I have NEVER seen it done to my standard. I have had forum members who claim they can do it try to show me. Any every single time I can see texture in the paint from the sand paper, very light, but still visible.



At some level, I do not feel the PC has the power to level paint flat, but rather just rounds of the edges of scratches as it chases everything downward.



This doesn't mean you cannot visibly remove damage with a PC (because it does remove paint obviously) but how level is it really making the paint? Maybe I just suck with a PC, which is fine, because I never use one. But that also means that the guys who used to tell me they could remove wetsanding scratches with a PC sucked as well because I always could see the reminents.



I am pretty good at wesanding and get the paitn absolutely satin with no tracers and even then it usually takes 2-3 passes with a wool pad an a sharp abrasive compound to remove all sanding scatches and texture.

 

[Cleaning Fool]

Sure you can cut with a PC, not very well with 6.5 pads, you need 4 inch pads to have a fighting chance. It is what it is, it has its limits. For the average joe who wants his car to look great so he can attract the chicks, the PC will be fine.

 

[SteveO2005TSX]

I just made the switch and had some trouble spots that my UDM couldn't remove with a heavy cutting pad, compound, and a lot of pressure, no luck. 2 minutes with the rotary, my first time every using one, my trunk is 100% swirl/scratch free

 

[bumoftheday]

Done with a PC using Wolfgang TSR 3.0 and 5.5" LC Orange Pad on an 06 CR-V

Before

After 1 Pass

After 2 Passes

 

[wfedwar]

Hondas don't count. We're talking about cured paints here.

 

[Kevin Brown]

I can see both sides of the coin...

1) I can complete a full correction with a PC and 4" pads, removing 99% or more of swirls. It takes quite a bit of time, though.

There's a lot of reasons the 4" system works so well. A lot of what takes place with this setup affects the machine's ability to successfully compete with a rotary for defect removal and a glass-smooth finish.

A rotary can remove 1500/2000 grits efficiently. Some detailers or paint correction specialists do work on fresh paint.

I have a Dynabrade RO head attachment for finishing super soft clears... Rarely used but it is faster/better at times. So, having both is best.

These are pretty neat. For me, this unit is a lot more comfortable to use than the Flex 3401 VRG.

For clarification - define "serious defect removal" and "very heavy defects" and give us more feedback/senarios on how a RO can "outperform" a rotary

I am not defining anything specifically (in terms of measured depth or difficulty) with those "terms"... I would like to debate this over a longer period of time and no way can I type a sensible opinion about this topic today. As I mentioned my original post, this a really great topic. I hope the discussion morphs into a thread based on theory of application and results.



I'd like to see something akin to what Todd (TH001) posted a while back when he compared the defect-removal capabilities of wet-sanding versus random-orbital versus rotary. While I did enjoy the write-up and appreciated his attention to control of the test, I would like to offer an opinion about his results. Not against them, nor to I wish to debate the results (I believe what he reported in his findings to be accurate). I'd like to explain why he got the results he did.

... a PC will NEVER match the power, cut, or precision of a rotary polisher.

I think you speak from personal experience on this, and do not doubt your observations. I have seen a random-orbital match the power, cut, and precision of a rotary polisher. It is do-able.

About wetsanding mark removal, I have NEVER seen it done to my standard. I have had forum members who claim they can do it try to show me. Any every single time I can see texture in the paint from the sand paper, very light, but still visible.

This is why we may have to employ a machine that shows the defects as they actually are, not as we independently see them, with different sets of eyeballs that have varying degrees of visual perceptions, or through the lens of a camera which is viewed through the internet... then through a computer screen!



No doubt you are very critical in your evaluation of the surface. This is necessary to be good at what you do. I believe you when you say that you have never seen it done to your standard.

I can see texture in the paint from the sand paper, very light, but still visible.

I've seen that myself. I've also seen this occur when polishing pretty fresh paint with a rotary (as the pliability of the paint is at its peak). It's times like these the random-orbital can level the remaining 'ridging' of the sanding marks. I respect to all of your opinions and appreciate the interaction and opportunity to discuss this more in-depth in the coming weeks! :woohoo: Thanks.

 

[imported_rydawg1]

Kevin



What compounds and pads are you using to level paint on the PC?

 

[wannafbody]

About wetsanding mark removal, I have NEVER seen it done to my standard. I have had forum members who claim they can do it try to show me. Any every single time I can see texture in the paint from the sand paper, very light, but still visible.



At some level, I do not feel the PC has the power to level paint flat, but rather just rounds of the edges of scratches as it chases everything downward.



This doesn't mean you cannot visibly remove damage with a PC (because it does remove paint obviously) but how level is it really making the paint? Maybe I just suck with a PC, which is fine, because I never use one. But that also means that the guys who used to tell me they could remove wetsanding scratches with a PC sucked as well because I always could see the reminents.



I am pretty good at wesanding and get the paitn absolutely satin with no tracers and even then it usually takes 2-3 passes with a wool pad an a sharp abrasive compound to remove all sanding scatches and texture.

I agree. Removing wetsanding marks on GM clear takes a rotary, wool pad and a good compound. And even then it isn't 100%. I still have some tracers-maybe it's cause it was my first attmept at wetsanding.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

While most of the original sanding pictures are gone, the car is still looking fantastic.



He sanded his whole car and used a PC.



It can be done to high standards on some paints.



Altezza Detail(IS200 Import)Wetsand overload. A Biblically HUGE thread! Jetseal'd - Detailing World

 

[Todd@RUPES]

While most of the original sanding pictures are gone, the car is still looking fantestic.



He sanded his whole car and used a PC.



It can be done to high standards on some paints.



Altezza Detail(IS200 Import)Wetsand overload. A Biblically HUGE thread! Jetseal'd - Detailing World

I don't deny that I suck with a PC. All I can say is in person I have never seen it done. However if guys like Kevin Brown and Picus say it can be done, I hold both of their opinions in very high regard.