How to sell an Autopian car

B

BoxsterCharlie

New member
We care well for our cars. Really well. So well that it is hard for the used car market to understand and appropriately value our vehicles.



When I sold my last car, I had to wait about 3 weeks until someone would even see it. Why? Because I set a high asking price for a car of that age and mileage. And guess what? That car sold to the first person who saw it--and at near the asking price!



I'm creating this thread as a sort of record of my experience�from beginning to end--so others can benefit from it. I haven't seen any threads like it here.



The situation is this:



My wife is bored with her mint, low mileage 2001 Civic. She has agreed to learn stick shift (yippee!), and we will take delivery on a 2004 MINI Cooper S in September. Meanwhile, the Civic needs to be sold.



The dealer offered us “wholesale� for the car as a trade-in�what a joke! So we are selling it privately. Here are my steps



1. Two weeks ago, I borrowed some money from savings and paid off the loan. The title is now in our hands. This makes for a much easier transaction.



2. I began detailing the car to concours standards about the same time. New hubcaps were purchased on eBay (curb rash), wheel wells cleaned with wheels removed, undercarriage cleaned using jack stands…you get the idea. Only flaws are some door dings…after much deliberation I’ve decided NOT to repair them. Repair would only add to the asking price, and I’d rather the new buyer make the decision about spending money to repair such tiny defects. The car is now ready for sale.



3. Purchased a CarFax record for the car. Came out clean, as expected. To my delight, they even provide a public URL where anyone can view the record for free! I had no idea.



4. I priced the car. I took the “Black Book� retail number and subtracted $1,000. This is a high price, but we are in no hurry and as you know a buyer will only haggle down, not up. Hopefully when they see how mint the car is the price can stay pretty firm.



5. I took lots of pictures and posted them to a web site. You can check it out at http://home.comcast.net/~charlesgor...Civic/civic.htm (Please don’t take this thread in any way as an advertisement; I can remove this link if anyone accuses me of that. I just think this is a nice example of what you can do)



6. I put an ad up in cars.com. Pretty easy to use. I opted for the "premium" service for $45, which includes 9 pictures. Unfortunately the pictures are pretty small, but at least it makes the listing stand out a bit better. You can see it here:

http://www.cars.com/search/used/cc/...n&src=&cid=null



7. Here is the sales history:



8/25: Listed on Cars.com for $13,350 ($55 for ad)

8/28: Price lowered to $12,990

9/1: Price lowered to $12,690, Ad placed on Craigslist.com (free)

9/1: Built a web page for the car

9/1: Craigslist ad gets an email inquiry, bottom feeder

9/3: Call responding to cars.com, says will see on weekend

9/4: Price lowered to $12,490

9/6: 9/3 caller sees car, drives it, likes it, but apparently not interested (didn't make an offer). I think it was a tire kicker.

9/9: Ad placed on Autotrader.com for $12,490 ($70 for ad)

9/12: Still no calls. Price lowered to $12,390.

9/15: Still no calls. Price lowered to $12,290.

9/18: Call responding to AutoTrader.com ad, wants to see

9/19: Yesterday's caller comes, loves car, agrees to purchase. Problem is we're going on a week vacation. Buyer says to call on return, perfect for him as he needs time to get the money anyway. I ask for $100 to remove my ads, he doesn't have it. I tell him I will keep the ads up but will call him first when he gets back.

9/20: Call from unknown source asks about car. I tell him the car is probably sold, take his number.

9/28: Back from vacation. Original buyer tells me he may have lost his job (yeah, right? Actually I sort of believe him), tells me to wait a day for details. I do.

9/29: Definitely a no-go on this buyer. I call the 9/20 guy; he already bought a car.

9/30: Price lowered to $12,190. Now I am getting cynical. This price is beyond fair, well under $1,000 less than dealers.

10/1: Caller says he is interested, would like to see on the weekend. I never find out where he found the ad.

10/4: 10/1 caller comes out to look/drive car. Has a color printout of my web page! Light rain is kind of a shame because it hides the try paint quality, but with Aquapel on the windows and a full Klasse/P21S treatment it is beading the water wonderfully. Test drive is good, buyer makes a lowball offer of about $1,000 less than asking. I tell him that $12k is a take-it-or-leave-it price (a reduction from my $12,190 advertised). He counters with a printout of a Blue Book which shows something like $11,560. I explain that the car is the best cared for he will find in the area, and basically thank him for his time. To my surprise, the deal is clinched on that! Buyer will call in a couple days for final arrangements.

10/6: Buyer contacts me, would like to close deal soon except I insist on a cashier's check. I do some homework on him anyway, checking out address, phone number, etc.

10/8: My wife and I deliver the car in the evening. Buyer goes over car with a flashlight, comments about how clean it is ("has this even been driven in the winter?")

10/15: Check clears. End of story. See post-sale remarks below.



Postscript: Ironically, I have kept the ads going in Autotrader.com and Cars.com (at $12,190) but have gotten NO CALLS! I was thinking of lowering the price on the ads to different levels to see what happens, but that's not really fair to people and would be too strange if the new owner found out.
 
One thing I have learned, most dealers only offer wholesale value for trades, any trade. Does not matter what year, make, or model it is. They could care less what condition it's in, or how many miles it has. Then they usually turn around and put it on the lot for double what they payed for it. :rolleyes:



More or less, they want you to pay full retail, and they pay you wholesale. There car is worth everything, yours is worth nothing. Ahh, the wonderful dealer buying process. :rolleyes: :down I will NEVER trade a car in again, EVER.



Good luck with selling the Civic. :bigups
 
Recently, my wife and I traded in our Autopian 2001 Infiniti QX4 and a 2002 MBZ C240 Sedan. Both places fell over when they saw the condition of the cars. I received $2500 over bluebook on the QX4 and $2000 over bluebook for the C240. Both which were way over wholesale. It helps to take the car to the same type of dealer to get the most for your trade-in. (We traded Infiniti for Infiniti, and MBZ for MBZ). Car dealers like repeat business. My father has ben in the business for over 20 years now, and usually advises me on all of my purchases. He agrees that they were both great deals.



Good luck...:xyxthumbs
 
Both of these comments make sense. The MINI dealer was very clear that I should sell the Civic myself, since they are very small and obviously don't sell any used cars. It also doesn't help that the MINI is an MSRP sale, no bargaining to be had. (We have been on the waiting list since April)



It's too bad, since in my state you only pay sales tax on the trade-in difference.
 
Boxster Charlie, a fellow Metro-Wester!!! I am in Framingham...Yes, car dealers make little money off brand new vehicles, but make a killing off of trade-in's, primarily because most people do not want to take the time of listing a car, showing it to dead beats, joyriders, etc (in my case if I ever sold the Cobra). The dealers will take almost anything off your hands, pay off your loan, etc. So while you do not have to haggle with potential buyers, list the car, the tradeoff is getting ripped on the trade-in. For some people, its worth it.



For me, and many Autopians alike, it is worth the full day of detailing, ad creation and $100 or so in ad fees to get as much money back from your car as possible. This weekend I will be giving my mom's old Subaru SVX the full treatment for a post on eBay and the local paper.
 
Whoa! two in a row in Mass! I had a Massachusetts detailers thread up awhile ago, only had three people respond other than me.



Anyway, yeah, it's definitely worth the time to detail it for the price difference you can get. If you make it look like a new car it puts the buyer in a whole new mindset. I've been trying to convince my girlfriend that she could get more for her 626 if it was detailed (it's 3 hours away from me, so I'm not able to do it easily). She doesn't believe me... something about "the economy can't take it"... oh well
 
mlebarron said:
She doesn't believe me... something about "the economy can't take it"... oh well
Click to expand...



this is a whole different ball game--girls and cars...My old lady got a 2000 Saab a little bit ago (from Framingham Saab) and I told her to refuse any sort of dealer prep and going forward to refuse it after service...she fails to listen...:rolleyes: and I'm the idiot on a Saturday trying to fix the paint...can't live with them, can't live without them.
 
yeah no kidding... she was visiting me friday and saturday, although I didn't have time to clean the car. I drove it Friday night, thick film on the mirror and on the back window, could barely see out the back with lights reflecting off the film. I asked her about it when we got home (she was driving my Jeep)... her response "They don't look dirty to me"... needless to say I cleaned them and she could tell a difference.



the alternative I know... can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em
 
FWIW, around my house, it's the exact same situation in reverse when it comes to cleaning the house. "What? I couldn't tell it needed to be dusted. It looks fine to me."



:D



John
 
One of the challenges to selling that Civic is the fact that anyone can get a 2003 Civic LX Auto for under invoice. www.carsdirect.com says I can get one for about $14,300. Plus on a new car a buyer can easily get affordable financing from a dealer instead of messing with it on their own.



So getting $13,500 or so for a used one will be very tough. I'm gonna guess wholesale is about $12,000, maybe a little less. I don't know if there's an easy answer here but I wish you luck.
 
It is true that brand-new cars are pretty low. I have the luxury of time, so I'm starting high and will be lowering the price a bit each week if necessary. Still, the used market for Civics seems pretty good. I could sell it for $500 over wholesale (about $11,400 I think) very quickly, and that's not bad for my effort.
 
I know the feeling of frustration of trying to "deal with the dealer" on a trade. We were looking at trading the Jeep for a GMC Envoy. My father in law is a reitred GM employee and we could get the car through the employee purchase plan.



We knew the price right up front... the dealer said we were "stealing" the vehicle from him. When it came time to appraise the trade, they offered us $15K. I was thinking more like $18.5 K in trade. (when we were looking, the Jeep had just turned 20K miles. We bought it in November 2000)



The gamut of excuses for not giving me what their own guides (NADA, Kelly Blue Book) said was a reasonable trade was...



There are area lot of these coming off lease (not my problem)



It's not a popular color. (Driftwood Brown Satin Glow... for a non popular color, I do see a lot of them!)



We can't make a profit on what you want us to give you in trade. Tis is the excuse that really ticked me off. They had a 99 Grand Cherokee Laredo with a sticker price of $21K that was nowhere near as nice as my JGC (it even had the dealer installed swirls!)



As my wife and I walked out of the showroom, the salesman followed us, and saying that we should wait... he was "positive that he could talk the used car manager into giving us a little more in trade..." yeah, right...they had the damn Envoy sold and blew the deal on the trade!
 
Disclaimer: I dislike car dealerships, and their greedy desire to make as much money off the buyers as possible. However, the free market dictates price. Thus….



Depending on the type of car, doing anything with a used car (other than buying) is difficult right now. It is truly a buyers market and the dealers know this. There are so many 2-3 year old higher volume and higher priced (above $15k) cars like SUV’s and sedans like the Honda Accord that come off leases every year that the used car market is flooded with good quality used cars. No matter what any book says the market forces cause the prices to be depressed (I know the books are suppose to take the market into consideration, but I am not sure of the sampling they take, nor how often they are updated - a dealer friend showed me that they use some auction house that publishes the auction prices daily on the net to determine the value of their trades). There are exceptions like used WRX’s which bring higher than book value because of the low supply on the used market.



The buying habits of individuals have changed and cars are not kept as long even though the cars last longer. The desire of people to buy new ever 3-4 years has caused the dealers to be really difficult to deal with on trades. The dealer can no longer can just turn every used vehicle over and make a big profit. So, many trades end up going to auction which means the dealer has to give below a certain margin to break even or to make some money at the auction. At the same time the profit margins are so low on some new vehicles that the dealer must make a profit on the trades. As for swirl free Autopian style cars, the dealers usually don’t care because the majority of buyers don’t either. Look around, do you see the lines at the automated car washes, the dealer free washes on the weekends, etc.? What does this say about the general public? The general rule seems to be that clean with a coat of “wax� is a well maintained car. Taking the time and going through the hassle is the only way to get decent money out of a used car.



It seems the only real ability to get decent money on a trade is to purchase a used car. Usually the dealer has more margin to work with the used vehicle and can give a little more on the trade. The basic rule on buying new or used is that the more negotiated the purchase price of the vehicle the less likely you are to negotiate the trade value. The internet’s exposure of invoice prices, hold back amounts, manufacturer rebates, cuts on % points on financing, etc. has caused the dealers to negotiate more on the selling price. They still have to make a profit to stay in business.
 
milani said:
Recently, my wife and I traded in our Autopian 2001 Infiniti QX4 and a 2002 MBZ C240 Sedan. Both places fell over when they saw the condition of the cars. I received $2500 over bluebook on the QX4 and $2000 over bluebook for the C240. Both which were way over wholesale. It helps to take the car to the same type of dealer to get the most for your trade-in. (We traded Infiniti for Infiniti, and MBZ for MBZ). Car dealers like repeat business. My father has ben in the business for over 20 years now, and usually advises me on all of my purchases. He agrees that they were both great deals.



Good luck...:xyxthumbs
Click to expand...



One thing you have to keep in mind is the type of car you are trading in and also what you are paying the dealer for the new car. If you get $1000.00 over on trade in and then turn around and pay $1000.00 more than what you could have negotiated a cash out deal for, then you really haven't acomplished anything. In your case the condition had something to do with the generous trade in, but probably mostly to do with the type of cars you were trading in. Infinitys and MB'S are more of a specialty car, while Hondas and Ford Taurus's are a dime a dozen and dealers won't pay much for them usually.
 
Navi Man said:
One thing you have to keep in mind is the type of car you are trading in and also what you are paying the dealer for the new car. If you get $1000.00 over on trade in and then turn around and pay $1000.00 more than what you could have negotiated a cash out deal for, then you really haven't acomplished anything. In your case the condition had something to do with the generous trade in, but probably mostly to do with the type of cars you were trading in. Infinitys and MB'S are more of a specialty car, while Hondas and Ford Taurus's are a dime a dozen and dealers won't pay much for them usually.
Click to expand...





Also the fact that we traded them in for replacements of the existing cars, that helps too....
 
Gonzo0903 said:
I know the feeling of frustration of trying to "deal with the dealer" on a trade. We were looking at trading the Jeep for a GMC Envoy. My father in law is a reitred GM employee and we could get the car through the employee purchase plan.



We knew the price right up front... the dealer said we were "stealing" the vehicle from him. When it came time to appraise the trade, they offered us $15K. I was thinking more like $18.5 K in trade. (when we were looking, the Jeep had just turned 20K miles. We bought it in November 2000)



The gamut of excuses for not giving me what their own guides (NADA, Kelly Blue Book) said was a reasonable trade was...



There are area lot of these coming off lease (not my problem)



It's not a popular color. (Driftwood Brown Satin Glow... for a non popular color, I do see a lot of them!)



We can't make a profit on what you want us to give you in trade. Tis is the excuse that really ticked me off. They had a 99 Grand Cherokee Laredo with a sticker price of $21K that was nowhere near as nice as my JGC (it even had the dealer installed swirls!)



As my wife and I walked out of the showroom, the salesman followed us, and saying that we should wait... he was "positive that he could talk the used car manager into giving us a little more in trade..." yeah, right...they had the damn Envoy sold and blew the deal on the trade!
Click to expand...



Gonzo, that was a mistake I made and vow never to make again. When I traded my '94 Maxima for the '02, the dealer only gave me $1500 for it. But 2 weeks later, I saw my '94 sitting on the lot for $6,000. I could have done better selling it myself for $4,000. :(
 
I don't care what the dealer gives me for my trade. I'm not keeping it, so I'm not attached to it. I always just argue the out the door cash price and focus on that. The dealer can play with the numbers all they want, but as long as how much I need to give to them meets my taget the sale is fine.



This basicly avoids them pushing one number up here to make you happy on some number somewhere else.
 
I will never trade in a car at the dealer - obviously one has to buy a car there, and there's plenty of haggling to be done, but it's ALWAYS worthwhile to sell a car yourself.
 
I have sold both my cars privately and having taken care of them does make a big difference in selling them, even in tough markets. For both the Explorer and the 5.9 I got the price I wanted, which was over the book value. I sold both to the first person who came out to look at them. The 5.9 I sold to a guy who drove all the way up from San Diego and didn't even argue with me on the price. In addition, I had about 10 calls on the Explorer and 5 on the Jeep the day after I put them in the Autotrader. Gotta love being an Autopian. :up



Mike
 
This has been the hardest car I've ever had to sell. It took nearly 6 weeks. The basic problem is that, at only 2 years old and 9K miles, I found myself competing against new cars and dealers. I had not anticipated that until I saw some of the remarks made by you guys.



Was it worth it? Absolutely. We still did about $800-1,000 better than the trade-in, and our buyer saved about the same money on the other side.



The most frustrating thing, of course, was getting people to look at the car. I learned that a buyer is a pretty unique person, and playing around with nuances in the ad prices doesn't drive callers. (Unless of course you put a dramatically lower price on the car).



Cars.com and Autotrader are both terrible, but what are you going to do? Autotrader is basically a crooked operation that favors their commercial accounts. Just do a search on anything and see how far you have to look for “private seller� listings. I had the 2nd lowest mileage Civic in the Boston area, but in a mileage-sorted search my car didn't even show up on the first page of results! Everything is dealer this, dealer that. I emailed them about this, and got no reply (big surprise).



My web page was a lot of work to create, but it was worth it. Not everyone looked at it, but it got about 40 real hits I'd say.



The benefits of keeping an Autopian car and presenting it to potential buyers? Well, I still think it is huge. Now if I was in the business I would absolutely hate trying to sell Autopian cars. Better to have a beat-up car which you can advertise at an aggressive price. Then you could have a dozen people look at the car--at least this gives you a chance to negotiate as they find disappointments.



My suggestions?



1) Advertise everywhere. You need people looking at your ads. You are looking for someone who is not turned off by your high price and has a certain optimism that yes, there are people who take fantastic care of their cars.

2) Have lots of time. If you price the car “high� (fair, actually, given the terrible condition of 90% of the cars out there), this can be a lengthy process.

3) Don’t fix everything at a body shop. The car is nice enough as it is. Give potential buyers a couple hundred bucks of bargaining room for a couple hundred bucks worth of dent removal. I debated this, and man, I’m really glad I didn’t make the car even more perfect than it was. The marketplace had a hard enough time realizing that “mint� really meant that.



Good luck with your next transaction! :)
 
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