How to define "protection" if not by beading, etc
- Thread starter velobard
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imported_truzoom
New member
The squeak test using a towel rubbed against the paint may provide an idea if anything remains on the paint.
imported_steveo3002
New member
wont paint squeak if its got cheapy gas station wax on or $$$$ top end stuff, how do gauge the level of protection as in product x vs product y
Accumulator
Well-known member
We kick this around from time to time and I dunno if we're ever gonna reach a consensus 
IMO:
If your beading changes, then something is different and it's probably not good.
If your paint doesn't feel smooth/slick and shed dirt readily then it might need redone.
If your paint looks worse than it used to then it's way overdue for treatment.
If in doubt, just reapply your LSP because if things were really swell you wouldn't be in doubt
IMO:If your beading changes, then something is different and it's probably not good.
If your paint doesn't feel smooth/slick and shed dirt readily then it might need redone.
If your paint looks worse than it used to then it's way overdue for treatment.
If in doubt, just reapply your LSP because if things were really swell you wouldn't be in doubt
White95Max
New member
The water beads are showing that there is something on the paint that is repelling the water, causing high surface tension. If the wax/sealant is gone, the beads will look substantially different. Polished paint will also bead water however, but that's due to the perfectly flat/smooth surface. Paint that hasn't been polished in 5 years, and has no wax/sealant on it, will not bead water very well, if at all. Each of the pits/scratches present a place for the water beads to fall into. The edges of each pit and scratch would present adhesive forces, pulling at the water from every side.
And like Accumulator said, if the paint holds on to dirt, it's time to rewax. A waxed surface will allow dirt to be shed easily. Precisely why I tend to apply #16 to the lower half of my car before any snowfall. It takes 10 minutes, and saves me at least 10 minutes later when I'm washing dried dirt/salt off the lower panels, plus it saves me a lot of frustration and possible marring.
And like Accumulator said, if the paint holds on to dirt, it's time to rewax. A waxed surface will allow dirt to be shed easily. Precisely why I tend to apply #16 to the lower half of my car before any snowfall. It takes 10 minutes, and saves me at least 10 minutes later when I'm washing dried dirt/salt off the lower panels, plus it saves me a lot of frustration and possible marring.
PadawanPrime
New member
White95Max said:
Werd. :xyxthumbs
I'm old school and I like seeing ALOT of beads when it rains after I first wax the car. I've always used a carnauba wax product, so I'm just used to water beading. Once the water stops beading for me, I know I will need to apply more wax in a couple of weeks.
I have read on MOL that some Meguiar's products are DESIGNED to sheet water rather than bead, so YMMV.
But if you use a carnauba wax, it should bead. Synthetics ... depends on the design.
Peace.
I look for a few things...
1. Is the beading noticably different than it was just after application? Some products have tight beads, some have larger, looser beads, so go your wax or sealant's typical characteristics.
2. Does the water sheet quickly when you remove the hose nozzle and run water slowly over the surface? Pooling of water is a sure sign you need to rewax.
3. Slickness. Not necassarily by skin touch because moisture can affect that but do towels glide well over the paint when drying? If not, time to rewax.
4. Appearance. Should be pretty obvious.....
1. Is the beading noticably different than it was just after application? Some products have tight beads, some have larger, looser beads, so go your wax or sealant's typical characteristics.
2. Does the water sheet quickly when you remove the hose nozzle and run water slowly over the surface? Pooling of water is a sure sign you need to rewax.
3. Slickness. Not necassarily by skin touch because moisture can affect that but do towels glide well over the paint when drying? If not, time to rewax.
4. Appearance. Should be pretty obvious.....
I'd been wondering about this question anyway, but a part of the reason I finally asked was reading the thread from several days ago where Finish Kare was banned. DavidB said, "Your paint finish may continue to shine, bead water or be slick, but that has little to do with protection." So far what I see in this thread is that those are the very factors that will tell you there is still some protection. I know the rest of you aren't speaking for DavidB, but I do have to wonder how he would define protection.
As far as water beading vs water sheeting, I put a layer of NXT on my wife's car several days ago and it rained a couple days later. I gotta say, while I like seeing water beading on a fresh layer of wax, it was cool when I looked at her car after she parked in the garage and it was practically dry from all the water sheeting off.
As far as water beading vs water sheeting, I put a layer of NXT on my wife's car several days ago and it rained a couple days later. I gotta say, while I like seeing water beading on a fresh layer of wax, it was cool when I looked at her car after she parked in the garage and it was practically dry from all the water sheeting off.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Was that the thread where David said he was doing some long-term testing? I also remember being perplexed about the remarks you cited.
It was the thread where someone asked the guy from Finish Kare how long their stuff lasted and Finish Kare responded with what everyone felt were, umm, overly optimistic claims. Apparently Finish Kare's claims were based on feedback they'd received from auto manufacturers in their own testing. DavidB and several others objected to the claims and DavidB wound up banning Finish Kare over the claims. The thread is at: http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49813
FWIW, I've seen at least some of the testing that GM used for testing paints and finishes when I worked at their desert proving ground in Arizona as a test driver. I'm sure they have more extensive tests they perform in Michigan, but in Arizona there were locations where car panels were propped up in the sun, and if I recall correctly some were in cases under glass to intensify the sun and heat on the finish. Of course, the engineers also evaluated the finish on the cars we used in durability testing. This was about 15 years ago. I spent 2 years with GM and then another year with VW as a driver, it was interesting work.
I'll admit I like to see product manufacturers on the forum, providing information and paying attention to what enthusiasts have to say about their stuff. In spite of Finish Kare's claims (and I find pretty much any manufacturer of any product to be overly optimistic so I take 'em with a grain of salt), they did offer some useful suggestions on how to use their products. They also offer a 10% discount to folks from Autopia, even after the ban.
FWIW, I've seen at least some of the testing that GM used for testing paints and finishes when I worked at their desert proving ground in Arizona as a test driver. I'm sure they have more extensive tests they perform in Michigan, but in Arizona there were locations where car panels were propped up in the sun, and if I recall correctly some were in cases under glass to intensify the sun and heat on the finish. Of course, the engineers also evaluated the finish on the cars we used in durability testing. This was about 15 years ago. I spent 2 years with GM and then another year with VW as a driver, it was interesting work.
I'll admit I like to see product manufacturers on the forum, providing information and paying attention to what enthusiasts have to say about their stuff. In spite of Finish Kare's claims (and I find pretty much any manufacturer of any product to be overly optimistic so I take 'em with a grain of salt), they did offer some useful suggestions on how to use their products. They also offer a 10% discount to folks from Autopia, even after the ban.
White95Max
New member
velobard said:
This will happen whether you have a sealant on or not. The high surface tension created by the wax/sealant repelling the beads, will cause them to be merely sitting on the surface, rather than sticking to the surface. When you drive, the wind pushing against the wind will push the beads off. It doesn't matter whether it's a sealant or wax, because both repel water. As the wind pushes each molecule of water, the cohesive forces holding the molecules together, will cause each to "hold hands". If one of them is being pushed off the surface, the whole group of molecules will follow suit, because the adhesive forces (paint holding onto the water) are very weak, due to the wax coating on the surface. When the cohesion > adhesion, the beads slip/roll right off.
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
Yes, that was the thread...I started another thread asking some further questions: http://autopia.org/forum/showthread.php?t=49922&page=1&pp=12. Anyway, that's really cool that you worked at the desert proving ground! A lifetime ago I wanted to go to the General Motors Institute (actually it was already GMI Engineering and Management Institute by that time...hmm, now it's Kettering University apparently), which was a co-op and I might have gotten to some of those GM facilities...but life intervened.
I'd missed your follow-up thread. DavidB's response in interesting and he does clarify his position at least somewhat, but I still don't see an clear explaination how beading could still be present and protection not be present. If I understand him correctly he says, the wax that causes the beading dissipates first, then the oils, etc also present in the wax are still offering protection. That should mean that if beading is still present, then not only the wax itself, but also the other protective components are still doing some good. Regarding DavidB's challenge to Finish Kare to prove their claims, I wonder exactly what kind of objective test would do the job? His main suggestion to judge protection appears to be going by feel.
On another note, it's a little ironic that the institute you wanted to attend wound up being called Kettering. When I worked at GM and VW I was actually a contract employee employed by a test engineering firm called Kett Engineering. Any chance there's a connection?
On another note, it's a little ironic that the institute you wanted to attend wound up being called Kettering. When I worked at GM and VW I was actually a contract employee employed by a test engineering firm called Kett Engineering. Any chance there's a connection?
White95Max
New member
velobard said:
I explained that here. Beads will still form on a flat, smooth surface.
White95Max said:
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
velobard said:
I've heard of Kett (not sure how...), but I think it's a coincidence, rather than a connection. GMI was founded originally to educate, groom, and train people for employment at GM, but just like other divisions of GM (Delco, etc.) and subsidiaries of other manufacturing giants, they have all been sold/spun off in the corporate raider/MBA/"core business"/"I'm the CEO and I want a huge bonus" mentality of the 80's/90's/00's. Then GM will complain that they can't get properly educated/trained personnel because universities don't know how to prepare people to work in industry, when they gave up their own captive higher-learning institution created for just that purpose. [/rant]
White95Max said:
True, but that's distinctly different from the beading that occurs on a nice layer of carnuba.
This brings me to another question...reagrding sealants (and pretty much all Mequiar's products), can you judge protection by the fact that water sheeting is still present?
Setec Astronomy
Well-known member
velobard said:
I didn't have time to reread those other threads, but IIRC, I understood the explanation that the oils cause the gloss/beading, and that those may dissipate, leaving wax protection which may not be glossy/beady. It may be that there can be protective elements that protect the paint from degradation from UV/heat but don't contribute to slickness/beading which helps to keep the paint clean. We know that surface degradation comes from different mechanisms, some of which work together (bird poop in the hot sun). That's why I was interested in David's test results, which may be similar to the types of tests you saw being performed at the AZ proving grounds. I have also seen test panels like you describe at other types of facilities, testing finishes for use on outdoor equipment.
I understood it to be the other way around, wax dissipates first and the oils still protect. Here's a couple of quotes from DavidB from the thread you started.
Then he says:
On the surface that seems to contradict where he said the best way to judge is by feel. I'm curious to see what criteria he uses to make judgements in his long-term test. I want to make it clear that I'm not dissing DB at all, I respect the fact he has much more knowledge and experience than I do, I'm just trying to understand this stuff.
Since his testing involves salt exposure I was reminded of a car I saw when I lived in Hawaii long ago. There was a car that was just a couple years old and was outrageously rusted. It was one of those models branded as an American model but made somewhere in Asia, I think a Plymouth Arrow. I was literally covered in rusted holes and I don't know what held it together enough to keep it on the road.
BTW, out of curiousity I googled the phrases Kettering University and Kett Engineering and didn't come up with any connection. Pretty much all the test drivers in AZ at the time were contract. I remember Kelly Girls temp agency provided drivers for Jaguar. Chrysler was the only one that still employed drivers directly. The part of my job at GM that was the best was one night when I remember cruising around the track at 100 mph in a prototype Corvette with Bad to the Bone at full blast on the Bose stereo and thinking "I'm actually getting paid for this". The worst part was getting out of that 'vette and driving home in my beat-up diesel Rabbit.
Then he says:
On the surface that seems to contradict where he said the best way to judge is by feel. I'm curious to see what criteria he uses to make judgements in his long-term test. I want to make it clear that I'm not dissing DB at all, I respect the fact he has much more knowledge and experience than I do, I'm just trying to understand this stuff.
Since his testing involves salt exposure I was reminded of a car I saw when I lived in Hawaii long ago. There was a car that was just a couple years old and was outrageously rusted. It was one of those models branded as an American model but made somewhere in Asia, I think a Plymouth Arrow. I was literally covered in rusted holes and I don't know what held it together enough to keep it on the road.
BTW, out of curiousity I googled the phrases Kettering University and Kett Engineering and didn't come up with any connection. Pretty much all the test drivers in AZ at the time were contract. I remember Kelly Girls temp agency provided drivers for Jaguar. Chrysler was the only one that still employed drivers directly. The part of my job at GM that was the best was one night when I remember cruising around the track at 100 mph in a prototype Corvette with Bad to the Bone at full blast on the Bose stereo and thinking "I'm actually getting paid for this". The worst part was getting out of that 'vette and driving home in my beat-up diesel Rabbit.