How much is too much

P

picorrect

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I know I know, you shouldn't put anything on top of Zaino, but I've read somewhere that a carnauba topper adds a level of depth not achieved with Zaino alone. Can anyone confirm that before I waste my time.



I realize the next time I apply Zaino, I'll have to strip the topper, but since Dawn strips carnauba, not Zaino, it should be easy.



What do you recommend as a topper? I'm looking for something I can get in a local store. I really don't want to deal with online purchases for such a small order.



Any ideas?
 
I've used MG Deep Crystal System Step #3 Carnuba wax (maroon bottle) that I got at Target. It added a little depth maybe on my Jeep's hood and I'm going to try it on my Vette's hood for show and shines this summer, but for everyday use, the carnuba doesn't last more than one good coin wash, which I do at least twice a week during the winter (on my Cherokee). The Zaino has held up now over 10 coin coin washes with full pressure and their awful soap.
 
I tried using a topper on zaino about 2 months ago on my garage queen. I tried #26 first and found that initially it enhanced the depth without changing the gloss. Over a few days of just sitting in the garage it appears as though a haze developed that actually dulled the appearance of the paint. This haze could be buffed off with a 100% cotton towel without difficulty. I next purchased some P21S and tried the experiment again. The shine and depth were improved but again only short-lived.

Another major drawbacks on topping Zaino was the loss of the evenness of the finished surface. With a Zaino finish the car appears to have a even coat of liquid glass but with the carnauba topper this just dipped in glass evenness disappeared.

If I were to have the car in a show and short term gloss and depth were important I would probably top with P21S. But for long term detailing I have learned my lesson.

Give it a shot. Your experience may be different from mine and different colors and paint may react differently. Good luck and let us know your results and technique. I am always open to new ideas. :cool:
 
I'm topping with Blitz right now and the combination of

the two is awesome.



Why did I do this?



1- Zaino looks terrific on sunny days but on hazy or overcast

days it looks a little flat. IMHO-IMHO



2- On sunny days at high noon the sides of my dark green

car look stunning but when I look directly at the hood

for some reason the top of the car looks flat and

not as wet[buttery] as the sides. IMHO-IMHO



3- Carnauba gives little UV protection.



I had put on about 7 coats of each Z5 and Z2 FXed and it

was not fixing the above #1 and #2 for me. IMHO



Since I added the Blitz I seam to have the best of both worlds.

I'm sure similar effects would happen with PS, Meguiar's, P21s, Etc.



Your absolutley right, when we need to upgrade the Zee we can

just Dawn the carnauba or cleanse the paint of everything

and start with a clean slate.



Before the ZEE BEE's start to swarm please remember that

this is a Discussion Forum and if another thread is needed

for debunking this topic please start another one for

" Reasons Not To Top Zaino" or whatever. Please leave this one alone for pioneers who like to experiment. If in six months to a year this experiment turns out to be junk then you can say

we told you so but till then please let us discuss NSX's

post " Best Topper For Zaino "



Thank You,



RD
 
RD I agree with your assessment

of Zaino, especially on dull overcast days. That is why I tried the topper. I am glad your experiment worked out. Keep us updated.:D
 
I know Sal 100% discourages against using another wax on top of Zaino, and for good reason. I understand his concerns and then removed the carnauba that I had tried.



But, since I tried it, here's my feedback on what I noticed: I used Blitz over Zaino as well. The shine was quite good, even looked brighter and maybe just a tad deeper (the Zaino is already deep IMHO, so there was very little improvement in my eyes, but some nonetheless). Here's the thing that really struck me, I could actually tell that I had lost the 99.9% clear reflections that Zaino gives. From a deep angle it was still very shiny with Blitz added but it looked sort of like orange peel was added as well causing less than perfect clarity. Some call it hype, but I honestly believe Zaino is 99.9% optically clear especially after seeing these effects.



If you want to experiment yourself with store bought waxes, I'd suggest maybe 3M Show Car Paste, or maybe something like Eagle1 Pure Carnauba. I've used many Meguiar's waxes in the past and simply can't recommend them anymore. After years of their use and buildup on my surface, I noticed a considerable amount of yellow tinting. Stick with another line and hopefully the same won't be true over time.
 
Last night I applied Souveran to the right half of the hood, right fender and right passenger doors. The car is a black BMW with about 10 coats of Zaino on it. I did it to compare dust attraction and the overall look. I'll make an assessment this weekend under the bright sun. It was impossible to notice anything at all last night under the garage lights.
 
TO BE FAIR---> You can not really assess that by putting the topper on half the panel or joining panels. The oils in carnubas can cause a static charge that will charge the whole panel and possibly adjoining panels even on the surfaces where it is not applied. For fairness sake, I would compare with the topper on a separate panel. Depending on conditions it's tough to assess dust attraction as their are lots of variables. The only true way I believe one can assess it is to use one product on the car and live with it for a few weeks....washing drying, driving,and evaluate how clean the car stays,etc,etc......and then use the other product on the whole car and after a few weeks of your normal routine you should notice a difference with one of the products...........



Keep us posted.
 
DK,



Thanks for the input, my friend.



I agree that doing half a panel will cause a static charge on the entire panel. I guess that's why I also did the doors and the fender. I'll try to limit my assessment to the fenders and doors. I sure as heck won't do anything ridiculous like assessing the dust attraction on two surfaces right next to each other and then use a leaf blower to simulate wind or driving conditions. My wife drives the car 50 miles a day and often parks outside at work. I'll forgoe my usual QD sessions so by this weekend, there should be plenty of dust on the car.



You are right about the topper. Making this kind of comparison might not be fair because the Souveran'd panels get the benefit of a Zaino base. FWIW, I PPCL'd the portion that was given the Souveran, although I realize that PPCL probably will not remove the Zaino (it sure didn't feel like it was being removed!).



BTW, on a side note, PPCL worked GREAT for me this time. I used a different applicator this time and I didn't get any hazing whatsoever. It didn't do much for swirls, but it left a very shiney, soft surface for the Souveran.
 
Every spring for the past two or three years, I've taken my BMWs through a thorough wash; intensive polish, glaze and sealant using a Porter Cable 7424; and two or three coats of wax. They look incredible after this process. However, will I eventually see a deterioration of the clearcoat by using intensive polish on the entire car year after year? One of the cars is an SUV and I'm in the northeast. It gets hammered by the weather, so I can justify the process because it gets rid of all the imperfections brought on by the weather. The other vehicle is a spring-summer-fall car that never sees the winter weather. Still, I love the perfection that this process brings to the finish each spring, as I begin the driving season. Can any of you offer any insight on the clearcoat question. ... BTW, I'm not a professional detailer like many of you. I appreciate the professional perspective. Thanks!
 
Black330 said:
Every spring for the past two or three years, I've taken my BMWs through a thorough wash; intensive polish, glaze and sealant using a Porter Cable 7424; and two or three coats of wax. They look incredible after this process. However, will I eventually see a deterioration of the clearcoat by using intensive polish on the entire car year after year? One of the cars is an SUV and I'm in the northeast. It gets hammered by the weather, so I can justify the process because it gets rid of all the imperfections brought on by the weather. The other vehicle is a spring-summer-fall car that never sees the winter weather. Still, I love the perfection that this process brings to the finish each spring, as I begin the driving season. Can any of you offer any insight on the clearcoat question. ... BTW, I'm not a professional detailer like many of you. I appreciate the professional perspective. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Before you polish the car the next time, you might want to invest in a paint thickness meeter. If you see the thickness of the paint is healthy, go ahead and do your think. If not, be very careful.
 
Simple answer, on an indefinite timeline, yes. You will see a deterioration of the clearcoat if you do this every year, eventually.

How long will it take to cause this deterioration? That's hard to say, as what you call an intensive polish, and what I call an intensive polish, are probably different things. And as Barry has suggested, without knowing the actual thickness of the paint or how much clearcoat is being removed when you polish, there is no way to give you a definite answer.

You say the imperfections on your SUV are from the weather, do you think that the weather is the only cause of these scratches each year? Unless you drive through the occasional sand storm (maybe you live by a beach?) I wouldn't think your car would need an intensive polish each year (back to the part about having different definitions).

What kind of polish are you using? What kind of pad? At what speed do you usually use them? Knowing this will help to put things into perspective.
 
Guys, thanks for the feedback. I use Menzerna Intensive Polish and I follow the instructions in the Menzerna Application Guide: Orange pad, speed dial between 3-1/2 and 4. ... Do you suggest I apply this differently?

In terms of winter wear, I seem to get minor surface scratches, a lot of road salt wear on the ground effects, and some spots in the hood and roof. the process I outlined above clears it all up. I then apply a coat of wax occasionally, and it holds up nicely.

A paint meter? Can you point me to one that is effective and reasonable in price? Or maybe I should just stop doing the entire body and just focus on critical spots?
 
Well, it sounds like you try to take good care of your cars, and assuming you have a good washing technique in place, you should be fine doing a light polish each year for quite some time.

Menz IP and an orange pad seems a little harsh to me, but I haven't used that specific combo so I could be wrong.

Menz IP is leaning on the border of being a compound, but is still classed as a polish. You might to try using a green Lake Country pad instead of the orange, it will yield less overall cut, but should still be able to remove the swirls you accumulate over the year. Start off at speed 5 using firm pressure (not too heavy but not too light) for 4 passes and then slow it down to speed 3 for a couple passes using light pressure and moving the polisher a bit slower across the panel.

As far as a paint meter is concerned, run a search for 'Highline Paint Thickness Gauge', myself and quite a few other detailers use them without any issues. As far as PTGs are concerned, the Highline unit is very affordable.
 
While I take no responsibility for what I am about to type (disclaimer) I think you will be fine. Even though IP is a moderately abrasive polish, your application technique isn't. I would be shocked if after 4 polishing sessions you have removed anything more than 1/5th of a mil (probably closer to 1/10th). Again I am just guessing but that would fall in line with my experience in measuring paint. Then again you could be Zeus and apply so much pressure that you are causing the Earth to flatten and slow slighting in orbit.
 
Okay, perfect. Thanks for the guidance. The cars have looked great using this system for the past several years; I just became a little paranoid in reading some other posts. Thanks, again.
 
Personally I would back off as much as you can while still getting results( you could try megs 205 for example , a mild polish) if your planning on keeping your cars for many, many years .But thats just me , I like to keep my vehicles as long as I can .

But if the apperance of your vehicle is more important than how long the paint will last than rock on.

I would worry more about the one that is not garaged .

Clearcoat Paint thickness can be extreemly variable . BMW paint is usually very good paint but some of the newer cars today have very little clearcoat paint on them to start with.
 
Thanks for the advice. The SUV is 4 years old. The good weather car is 6 years old. Both are garage kept. There are no visible signs of deterioration yet. In fact, when the cars are fully detailed, they look new. The Finish on both cars is excellent. However, I intend to be very careful going forward. Thanks again.
 
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