How do you tell if a product removes another?

B

BobD

New member
This question has always came up to me and I never really have a good answer. The reason being is that if you are putting a new product on the application alone would probably be removing the old. Unless it's something with zero cleaners that goes on with an ultra soft applicator by hand and comes off with no effort what so ever. I know a lot of the modern day products are great at protecting and shining but I've yet to come across anything that is rock hard except the old school can waxes. To me I feel that you could rub your hand on the panel with many of the waxes and sealants and they'd be gone. Even when layering products over the years I'd rarely even notice a difference in longevity or appearance. I know some would swear it looked better and lasted longer but it was rare that I ever saw it. Just curious how you guys feel about what is really going on when you later products and if you feel you actually end up with multiple layers and more protection in the end or do you feel you are just removing the previous layer for the new?



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Eh, this is a tough one to reply to in a succinct manner, so bear with me while I ramble on...


 


First, IMO you gotta figure out if the new/additional product is gonna make the previous one a moot point; e.g., you wax with X and hopefully notice that  it feels/looks/acts like it's "waxed".  If you then wax it again with Y, what difference(s) do you expect to see, and if what you discern is the "Y effect" then how would you know if the X got removed or not?  In many cases I don't think you *can* tell, the subsequently applied product "replaces" the first one for practical purposes.   E.g., you wax with P21s and then rewax with M16; they both look/act/etc. about the same so I wouldn't expect any diff other than M16 lasting longer.


 


 In other cases you could tell...trying to think up a good example off the top of my head, hmm... OK, you wax with 476S and it looks/acts "Collinited"; then you wax again with Souveran and it looks different.  Now the Souveran will be gone in a few washes, and if you observe closely it'll start looking different as the Souveran goes away.  So you park in the hot sun and time passes and you wash six/eight times and IMO it's safe to assume the Souveran is gone.  Is it still slick/beading/"waxed"?  If so I'd assume the Collinite is still on there.


 


Better example: If you put six layers of KSG on, and then top with a wax, after a whle the wax will be gone but it'll still be "KSGed" and you'll be able to tell if only by that "signature plasticy KSG feel" even though there might be some "dead wax artifacts" on top of it.


 


One more example- top a "sheeting" product with a "beading" product...see what happens over a month or two.


 


FWIW, I usually just assume that the subsequently-applied product removed the previous one unless it's something like that KSG example.  I've switched my wife's A8 between three different waxes recently, and I don't think (or care) that the earlier ones are still on there doing much of anything.  Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, but IMO what I see/feel/etc. is the last one I applied.


 


As for layering, I try to test in a proper manner, with the types of controls you'd use for any scientific experiment.  It's been a while since I posted this, but here's how I test (when I care enough to actually do it ;) ) :


 


Pick a panel, like the hood.  Apply one coat of the product to the whole hood.  Apply a second coat (or more) to one half of the panel.  Apply one final additional coat to the whole panel to equalize the start-time for the test (especially important if you do this layering experiment over a protracted period of time, like after a series of washes).  Now you've got a hood with half that was LSPed twice and the other half that was LSPed more times.  Observe.  Do the two halves differ over time or do they act the same as the LSP gradually "dies off"?


 


Or, just don't worry about it and err on the side of caution by reLSPing on a regular basis before it obviously needs doing.  I layer things like FK1000P (over the course of several washes) and KSG, and Collinite because I've observed significant differences when I tested as per the above (and yeah, I know that's different from what some people have reported on the internet- go you your first-hand experience, not what anybody else says including me).  I do not bother layering other products, I just reapply them before I notice any obvious signs of LSP degradation.


 


One final note- LSPs like FK1000P that were developed as mold-release products almost *have* to layer or else they wouldn't be very good for that.  Maybe Ron Ketcham can chime in with a more knowledgeable viewpoint than mine....
 
Excellent elaboration Accumulator.


 
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One more example- top a "sheeting" product with a "beading" product...see what happens over a month or two.
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Can you give some examples of these?
 
This is why I haven't "layered" or "topped" in years. Just find the LSP you like best and use it as often as you need to. 
 
Scottwax amen. The waxaholics who top coatings threads especially ...are the biggest waste of bandwidth there is. Not to mention time and money. Also another myth is that the underneath LSP just sits there allowing the topper to be sacrificed first. Not true...the LSP and the topper degrade at the same time once applied. In fact the topper can actually cause the LSP to degrade faster if chemically incompatible.
 
I still layer FK1000P when I have the time.  That way if I *don't* have the time later I can just wash for (many more) months on end.  Getting six or eight weeks out of a LSP might be good enough for most people, but for some of my vehicles I want more than six or eight *months*.  Same reason I layer KSG; if you're only doing one or two layers of it, it won't last much longer than a good paste wax IMO.


 


 


UncleGrandpa- I have had combos where the underlying product did *not* degrade along with the topper.  It's one of those things where I won't generalize too much. 


 


As for topping sealants with waxes, *I* don't do it, but I understand why other people do and I hesitate to say they're wasting their time or money (eh, for that matter I hesitate to say people are wasting time/money when they to whatever turns their crank, but anyhow...).  E.g., layers of some sealants protect incredibly well against bird bombs and bugs, but don't look "right" on some vehicles like vintage classics.  Top with a wax and it looks different/better, more "period correct", but the sealant is still there protecting the paint against etching.  Heh heh, no way that something like Souveran will degrade six layers of KSG or a few applications of FK1000P (consider that FK actually sells a wax made to go over FK1000P with full compatibility).
 
I used to layer a wax on top of a sealant. But, honestly I didn't find it did much for durability. Plus it's a lot more work and you should wait for the sealant to "cure". I don't think I'll be doing that anymore.

However, the one exception is BlackFire Wet Diamond All Finish Paint Protection sealant topped with Midnight Sun wax. I know there isn't a lot of love for BF here, but this combo was designed to be layered and the wax contains similar polymers to the sealant. The look of this combo really is something special IMHO.
 
Swanicyouth- If you like how the BF looks, and can live with the durability and lack of etching protection, then by all means keep doing what works for you.  Does the Midnight Sun intensify the "darkening" effect?  I never topped BF's AFPP but used by itself it darkened Audi silver so much that it looked like a different paint code when parked next to another identical-paint car!
 
More random thoughts on this "product removes another" topic:


 


1Z Wax Polish Soft is one very fragile, short-lived product of the cleaner-wax variety.  A hard rain or a thorough wash and it's gone.  But I top it with no problems at all on my '93 Audi, using both Collinite 845 and 476S, both of which (per-VOC) are pretty solvent-rich.


 


If LSPs like P21s wax or BF removed the stuff their Pre-LSP cleaners leave behind, those systems wouldn't work on imperfect finishes.


 


If Meguiar's LSPs removed the stuff their Pure Polishes leave behind, then those systems wouldn't work either.


 


Here's another "layering" discovery- AIOs don't layer, right?  The Conventional WIsdom is that a product that contains chemical cleaners, let alone (mild) abrasives, simply can't layer.  E.g. I proved to myself that KAIO doesn't layer so that's that, right?  NOT NECESSARILY:


 


Autoglym Super Resin Polish contains chemical cleaners and *very* mild abrasives.  IME it can nonetheless be layered if you do it correctly- wait a day between applications, do those subsequent applications *VERY GENTLY* so you don't work the cleaners/abrasives into the previous coat very much- like just a gentle wipe-on with minimal pressure.  Never woulda thunk it; whenI read it on some Autoglym product info I thought it was a gimmick to get consumers to waste/buy more product.  But when I tried it a few times I was able to prove to myself that it does in fact work as long as I'm very gentle about it.  I'm able to get better concealing on my '85 Jag's imperfect paint, and the look of SRP topped with Souveran is *exactly* what I want that Rhodium Metallic single-stage lacquer to look like.
 
Accumulator said:
Swanicyouth- If you like how the BF looks, and can live with the durability and lack of etching protection, then by all means keep doing what works for you. Does the Midnight Sun intensify the "darkening" effect? I never topped BF's AFPP but used by itself it darkened Audi silver so much that it looked like a different paint code when parked next to another identical-paint car!
Click to expand...


Well, the car I am using it on is black and lives in the garage. However, it's driven about 7k miles a year. Because it lives inside, bird crap really isn't an issue.



However, I'm not buying one wax protects against bird crap better than another (excluding coatings). In order for one to prove that, you would need identical birds who ate identical worms who make identical crap - leaving identical crap on panels with different waxes. Of course, someone's anecdotal experience is a powerful testimonial for them to use what works for them.



Darkening....



That is why I like the look of BF. It seems to darken and add a lot of "jetting" on black. The combo surprisingly seems to hold up quite well - better than "natural" carnauba waxes without any polymers. However, I do top it off frequently with FK425 or something similar.



I also like the way the BF stuff handles water... It's not beading per se, but it seems to leave the car feeling "protected" subjectively. Top all of this with the fact the stuff is super easy to use and a bottle/tub lasts forever - and its a winner for me.



If course, I have many many LSPs, I'm just currently on a BF kick. My all time favorite all around wax is NaviWax Ultimate - it's like Colli 915 - only better.
 
SwanicYouth- Here's how I figured that some LSPs protect better/worse than others- E.g., pretty much *anything* that gets on my UPPed S8 (under 1K/year, true garage-queen) etches it unless cleaned off very promtly.  24 hours and the damage is done, bad enough to require abrasives.  (The more I repeat this the more I think I oughta redo it with something else!) OTOH, on my FK1000Ped/KSGed vehicles, such things simply *never* etch no matter what.  I've left bugs/bombs on for weeks at a time and never had etching.  Left some stuff on my Crown Vic from last August until this spring (I know, shouldn't do that...I just put it away and never got around to washing it) and had zero etching.  Merely anecdotal yes, but to me it's, uhm....inductively compelling when a number of LSPs perform consistently in this regard. 


 


I sometimes feel like I'm tempting fate, saying how I can get away with leaving the FK/KSG contaminated...


 


If I were the type to experiment, I'd use one LSP on one section etc. etc. and watch for bird bomb overlap.  Heh heh...how much do we really care, huh?


 


IIRC, the BF was better than UPP (which simply doesn't protect IME), and I didn't have it on for very long so I oughta step lightly with regard to lumping the two together.


 


And yeah, on black I can certainly understand how you like the look of BF!  Heh heh, same reason I did *not* like it on my silver Audi.  It's one *VERY* wax-like sealant.
 
Hey Accum.  You mentioned FK makes a wax designed to top 1000P, are you referring to Pink Wax?  Have you tried that over 1000P?


When layering 1000P, how much time do you wait between layers?  Once I am done polishing, I generally use FK 215, One Step Cleaner and Sealant as a final cleaning.  I seems to have very mild abrasives because it leaves the finish nice.  I then use FK 218 Poly Wipe Sealant and go to bed.  The next day I rewash (could probably get away with only QDing with FK425) and then apply 1000P.  I sometimes wonder if waiting the next day is really needed.
 
bert31- Nah, I never top FK1000P.  But yeah, I was referring to their Pink Wax.


 


Ron Ketcham could better answer your Qs, especially as I've never used the FK215 or FK218.  I apply FK1000P after whatever my penultimate product was (usually ZAIO, HD Polish, or good ol' 1Z Pro MP) and then apply another coat either the next day or (usually) after the next regularly-scheduled wash.


 


Ron insists that the wait time when layering FK1000P isn't necessary, but once bitten... Those pseudo-holograms I got the one time were a nightmare.


 


I'd sorta expect that the wait  (to apply FK1000P) is *NOT* required with what you're doing with the other FK products, but that's just a guess.
 
Interesting.  I thought all polymer based products needed time to cross link/adhere/bond whatever before applying another layer.


 


You mentioned the pseudo-holograms were a nightmare, they didn't go away when you stripped the layers off?
 
bert31- My PC won't do it either, not since the last update...whole lotta features that no longer work for me :(


 


Apparently "air contact" factors in a lot with FK1000P (where *is* Ketch, he knows from this stuff...).


 


Yeah, the pseudo-holograms when away when I stripped it, but I had maybe six layers on a (metallic black) Yukon XLD so it represented a *LOT* of wasted time/effort.  And stripping off all that FK1000P wasn't easy.  I basically had to say "well, I won't be driving *this* for a while!" right when I'd planned to put it into service. 
 
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