How Do Cleaners/Claybars/Polishes Fit Together?

H

HLxDrummer

New member
Well I am detailing cars this summer and I can get good results, but now I am trying to increase efficiency (more $/hr).



I've claybar'd cars in the past and while they feel a lot smoother, I've never noticed a difference in the look (unless there was crap on the paint that the wash didn't remove). It seems to me I can just do a gentle wash and then use the claybar to safely remove stuff the wash didn't remove unless the client is willing to pay me to do the whole car. Most of my clients just want a clean shiny car and aren't going to pay extra for this.



I've never used cleaners except Meguiar's cleaner wax on my car once. Not sure when they are required.



Polishing I am familiar with, but after reading the article "overpolishing your paint", I am wondering if polishing is required to bring shine to my client's vehicles. Obviously it is better to minimize clearcoat removal on every car, but can claybar treatments and cleaners replace a light polish in this department?



I've recently been working for a typical "detailer" that throws a wool pad at everything, etc. (hack) whereas when I used to do work on my own, I would take FOREVER and do every little thing for no money. I am trying to find an in between where I can take car of the customer's car, minimize clearcoat removal, and still make decent money for my time.



Sorry if this is confusing, I tried to organize it as best I could. Basically I just need help decided when each process is useful and required when running a typical detail business.
 
You can always use the new Autoscrub Fine grade pad or Speedy Surface Prep Towel with Nano Shine that is a spray Sealant or use a QD as a lubricant. Then top with your choice of Wax or use HD Speed which is an AIO that will give it a nice shine.



You can do all that pretty quick and get results most customers will be very happy with
 
This is my take on it, this is how I detal. So take it with a gran of salt.



1 - I NEVER ever charge extra for "claying" - that is part of a proper detail, every car gets clayed.



2 - claying is abrasive, a polishing step always follows it.



Now, I will assume that YOU use a pc type of polisher. No need to be concerned with over polishing. Using common sense is all it takes. BTW, a cleaner IS a polish. maybe less abrasive, but you are still polishing the paint. If you mean an AIO type product vs a pure polish, both will shine up the paint just fine. Use what you feel comfortable with. But remember that the pad will play a big part as well. To be safe, use a polishing pad.



You are not removing clear by what you think is "polishing", based on what I understood from your post above.



To be more efficient, you can move faster, but don't cut corners to save time. Naturally, practice makes perfect. The more you do it, the less time it will take you.



I hope I was able to sort things out for you, lets see what others say.



PS: There are customers out there who just want a wash and wax, thinking that is what a "detail" is. You can chose to do those, educate them and charge a higher price, or walk.
 
Very interesting... I'm not sure how "polishing" doesn't remove some clear, however. Would you mind elaborating?



Also, what benefits are realized from claying? I realized it removes contaminants/etc. but a lot of the things I hear seem superficial. Just wondering what makes you feel it is required.



As far as the customers that think a wash and wax is a detail: I am trying to reach a broad audience and appeal to that crowd as well as those that want an immaculate car. However, the person that wants a "wash and wax" detail is obviously going to have less work put into their car and that is where the claying v. polishing v. "cleaner" comes in. For the customers that are willing to pay, I will give them the works no doubt.



Thank you both for your replies!
 
If you dont remove them all your doing is just digging those contaminates into the paint, but hey if they aren't willing to pay and want you to still do a wash/wax then thats their call your in the business to make money
 
The best analogy I can come up with is this: Think of polishing (AIO or a generic polish with a polishing pad) as "washing" your face with soap. When you are "leveling" the paint, aka compounding, is like using a prescription like Ratin A, that may remove the most outer layer of the skin. Does that make any sense?



Also, if you had a Paint Thickness Gauge, you'd know that the numbers don't change by regular polishing. I guess there is always an exception, but in most cases even with heavy wool cutting the microns that are removed are very minimal. After all, we are talking about auto paint. They are very hard.



Claying: One of the most important steps in all of prepping. Claying will remove everything that is on top of the paint. Skip claying, and see how long your LSP will last sitting on top of embedded contamination.



Can you provide links to where you are getting your info about clay not being "that" important?



Reading your reply, it seems that you want to be the best you can be. Improving your detailing knowledge, happens by practicing proper techniques and reading. Please read up on all the very basic detailing steps. Next study the C&B threads. See if there is one single detail that doesn't include claying.

Did I help?
 
HLxDrummer said:
Very interesting... I'm not sure how "polishing" doesn't remove some clear, however. Would you mind elaborating?
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It's a matter of degree. If you "polish" aggressively enough to remove significant marring then you'll take off enough clear for that marring to "disappear" as the paint is leveled. But if you only polish enough to cut off oxidation, remove *very* light marring, and generally just bring up the gloss then you won't be removing much clear (and the result will be shiny paint that still has marring, which probably won't bother most "normal people").



And some "paint cleaners" do their thing primarily through *chemical* action, with minimal abrasion (as in, they're just not "functionally abrasive" on most paints). Products like KAIO, Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion, P21s Gloss Enhancing Polish, Meguiar's Deep Crystal Step #1 Cleaner, and Zymol HD Cleanse are like that, as are many cleaner-waxes.



Also, what benefits are realized from claying? I realized it removes contaminants/etc. but a lot of the things I hear seem superficial. Just wondering what makes you feel it is required.
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Decontamination is good, but a) you can decon. without claying (systems like "ABC") and b) people kept cars nicely detailed for decades before "detailing clay" came out.



The contamination would have to be pretty bad for it to turn your polishing pad into a scratch-machine. Not saying it can't happen, but again, it's a matter of degree.



I myself have never had problems with LSPs dying fast because I didn't clay, but perhaps the vehicles weren't all that contaminated to start with, or maybe my other detailing steps took care of it :nixweiss



Hey, I like clay, been using it since it first came out maybe 20 years ago. I'm the guy who spot-clays at every wash. But it's not like I didn't/couldn't do OK without it too.



As far as the customers that think a wash and wax is a detail: I am trying to reach a broad audience and appeal to that crowd as well as those that want an immaculate car. However, the person that wants a "wash and wax" detail is obviously going to have less work put into their car and that is where the claying v. polishing v. "cleaner" comes in. For the customers that are willing to pay, I will give them the works no doubt.
Click to expand...



That sounds resonable to me. Not like every vehicle has to end up all "Autopian", especially at the lower price-points.
 
ls2drew said:
If you dont remove them all your doing is just digging those contaminates into the paint, but hey if they aren't willing to pay and want you to still do a wash/wax then thats their call your in the business to make money
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I can definitely see how that would work. I think most customers aren't willing to pay for something that doesn't make a visible difference such as this however which is a shame. Little stuff like that probably adds up to corrections being required in the first place. Kind of like people not wanting to do maintenance to their cars in general then ***** when it breaks.



Thomas Dekany said:
The best analogy I can come up with is this: Think of polishing (AIO or a generic polish with a polishing pad) as "washing" your face with soap. When you are "leveling" the paint, aka compounding, is like using a prescription like Ratin A, that may remove the most outer layer of the skin. Does that make any sense?



Also, if you had a Paint Thickness Gauge, you'd know that the numbers don't change by regular polishing. I guess there is always an exception, but in most cases even with heavy wool cutting the microns that are removed are very minimal. After all, we are talking about auto paint. They are very hard.



Claying: One of the most important steps in all of prepping. Claying will remove everything that is on top of the paint. Skip claying, and see how long your LSP will last sitting on top of embedded contamination.



Can you provide links to where you are getting your info about clay not being "that" important?



Reading your reply, it seems that you want to be the best you can be. Improving your detailing knowledge, happens by practicing proper techniques and reading. Please read up on all the very basic detailing steps. Next study the C&B threads. See if there is one single detail that doesn't include claying.

Did I help?
Click to expand...



That does make sense. I never read a specific article saying its not important, ive just never seen a difference in the paint before/after flaying (except for spot claying obvious problem areas)



Accumulator said:
It's a matter of degree. If you "polish" aggressively enough to remove significant marring then you'll take off enough clear for that marring to "disappear" as the paint is leveled. But if you only polish enough to cut off oxidation, remove *very* light marring, and generally just bring up the gloss then you won't be removing much clear (and the result will be shiny paint that still has marring, which probably won't bother most "normal people").



And some "paint cleaners" do their thing primarily through *chemical* action, with minimal abrasion (as in, they're just not "functionally abrasive" on most paints). Products like KAIO, Pinnacle Paintwork Cleansing Lotion, P21s Gloss Enhancing Polish, Meguiar's Deep Crystal Step #1 Cleaner, and Zymol HD Cleanse are like that, as are many cleaner-waxes.







Decontamination is good, but a) you can decon. without claying (systems like "ABC") and b) people kept cars nicely detailed for decades before "detailing clay" came out.



The contamination would have to be pretty bad for it to turn your polishing pad into a scratch-machine. Not saying it can't happen, but again, it's a matter of degree.



I myself have never had problems with LSPs dying fast because I didn't clay, but perhaps the vehicles weren't all that contaminated to start with, or maybe my other detailing steps took care of it :nixweiss



Hey, I like clay, been using it since it first came out maybe 20 years ago. I'm the guy who spot-clays at every wash. But it's not like I didn't/couldn't do OK without it too.







That sounds resonable to me. Not like every vehicle has to end up all "Autopian", especially at the lower price-points.
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I very much agree and understand this post. I can see how claying is beneficial but not always required for the entire car in most lower end details. Now I just need to figure out when a cleaner is required. When the paint is oxidized? When else?



Thanks so much guys! I am trying to be the best I can be and learn everything I can and you guys and invaluable!
 
HLxDrummer said:
I never read a specific article saying its not important, ive just never seen a difference in the paint before/after flaying (except for spot claying obvious problem areas)..
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While I'd rather use a decontamination system than clay for extreme situations, I *CAN* say that I've done plenty of cars where claying/decontamination did make a remarkable difference, as in, simply astounding. And I'm not even a Pro! When such stuff really needs done, well...it really needs done. It's just that it isn't *always* needed IMO.







Now I just need to figure out when a cleaner is required. When the paint is oxidized? When else?
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When washing alone doesn't leave things clean. After a regular wash, I've had cars that were still just not "ready to wax" for one reason or another. Doing a test-spot with a paint cleaner resulted in a nice improvement, so OK..I did the rest of the car.



Another case is when you don't want to/can't abrade the surface because the paint/clear is thin.



And paint cleaners are usually quick and easy to use, which is more than you can say about some polishes.



BUT...in cases like these, a true all-in-one might be better than a "paint cleaner" because they're leave the car "detailed" with just one post-wash step.
 
Thomas Dekany said:
Claying: One of the most important steps in all of prepping. Claying will remove everything that is on top of the paint. Skip claying, and see how long your LSP will last sitting on top of embedded contamination.



Can you provide links to where you are getting your info about clay not being "that" important?
Click to expand...



I can testify to this point. After I first got our car a few years ago, I brought it home, gave it a good soaking in APC, washed and put some Opti-Seal on it. It lasted for a good 3-4 months. As time has rolled on, I thought my fairly picky maintenance was keeping the paint clean. I work near two airfields and park under a tree at home. Over time, the durability of OS decreased. Once it got down to sheeting well for 4-5 weeks at a time, it clicked to me that I had never needed to polish the car. I grabbed my clay next wash and went to town on just a small chunk of my roof. Holy tree sap and fallout from jet exhaust, batman. It chewed the clay up. Once over the car and done. I was really surprised at the clarity that returned. The paint was still shiny, but it didn't pop anymore. After the clay, it was better. I don't know if Joe Blow would have noticed, but it was night and day to my strange eyes.



After a light and quick polish with 205, followed by an ONR wash, OS was stretching its legs. It was back to sheeting well again, self cleaning well, looking all glassy and just being awesome in general again. Prep does make all the difference. ONR's inherent qualities blinded my feel for slickness and the feeling of contamination in the paint. (FWIW, I try not to touch my paint dry with anything if I don't have to.)



You're getting some great advice from some seriously great detailers. My two cents would be to take things slowly. Get a really good AIO and get used to using a machine. Follow up with your LSP of choice. Once you're good with that, start looking at upselling into what would be called an enhancement detail over here. A one-step aimed at restoring gloss and removing light defects. Don't over-sell it, but don't sell it short. The results can be quite good depending on the paint, technique and products.



Best of luck to you.
 
HLxDrummer said:
I can definitely see how that would work. I think most customers aren't willing to pay for something that doesn't make a visible difference such as this however which is a shame. Little stuff like that probably adds up to corrections being required in the first place. Kind of like people not wanting to do maintenance to their cars in general then ***** when it breaks.



.....



That does make sense. I never read a specific article saying its not important, ive just never seen a difference in the paint before/after flaying (except for spot claying obvious problem areas)



.....



I very much agree and understand this post. I can see how claying is beneficial but not always required for the entire car in most lower end details. Now I just need to figure out when a cleaner is required. When the paint is oxidized? When else?



Thanks so much guys! I am trying to be the best I can be and learn everything I can and you guys and invaluable!
Click to expand...



Claying (or equivalent/similar steps such as the "Clay Block" or Nanoskin towels) can make a visible difference on light-colored cars. Rail dust (very minute embedded iron specks), very fine tree sap, random paint overspray can probably be noticed from 5 feet away on a light-colored car. These types of contaminants are not typically removed with a normal car wash. Of course, we are talking about a distance of 5 feet...a distance that is probably more than acceptable to a non-autopian.



Frequency of claying greatly depends on how the car is driven and the environment in which it is driven. In all honesty, I give my car a full claying once a year and the clay itself never looks bad when i am done. Of course, I will spot clay when I discover random contaminants (mostly road paint), but for the most part once a year seems like a good interval for my vehicle. On the other hand, my parents' Highlander is parked outside 24/7 and is driven 70-90 miles a day. I detail this vehicle approximately every 3 months - Contamination is so bad that I buy a new bar just for them and I throw it away in the end.



Something to also keep in mind is that the very first claying session is generally always the toughest or longest because you are removing months if not years' worth of contaminants. Odds are that the customer or the dealership (yeah, right) have not clayed the car prior to you. Subsequent claying sessions are usually much easier and faster...which works out well for you and your regular customers.



With respect to oxidation removal, clay will remove some dead paint but it is extremely inefficient and expense because you will go through a ton of bars - it's an example of the "wrong tool for the job". You are better off using a chemical cleaner/abrasive polish and a few pads to remove oxidation.
 
HLxDrummer said:
That does make sense. I never read a specific article saying its not important, ive just never seen a difference in the paint before/after claying (except for spot claying obvious problem areas)
Click to expand...



Sometimes it is not about what makes a car look better right now, but keeping it looking good for a long time. Removing the contaminants from a car that is a year old may not make a large visible difference, but leaving them there allows them to continue to react/erode/eat away at the paint. The difference will be noticeable later on.



The only time I don't clay a car is when it is a maintenance wash/detail as part of an ongoing routine. If I haven't touched the car in 6 months it gets clayed and that is included in the price.
 
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