hopefully my final high end Wax question(s)

[Gopher]

Thanks.



That is interesting however i think dalton would disagree. He says you can get 1 year minimum and 3 years max with his pinnacle detail. Thats interesting. I asked him how he knew this... due to his wax not even being out a year... he didnt exactly give me a straight answer.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that most anyone who can afford his service is keeping their vehicles in a climate controlled, finished garage most of that alleged year. Waxes can certainly last a long time if a car isn't exposed to the elements. I was surprised this past weekend to see my fathers 911 I detailed last year and topped with Natty's Red (i.e. not very durable) beading like a champ this past weekend when it got caught in a storm...



Then again its only seen about 2000 miles of outside time in that year with no exposure to unfavorable weather conditions.

 

[Eisen Hulk]

John, you of all people should know that I'm not making a profit on the whole detailing thing because I can't stop spending money on different products. :aww:



Thanks for the link...I may look into that. :goodjob

Hey Case, they're still selling them :chuckle:



Here's the link to Supe's economy CRS system:



http://www.autopia.org/forum/detailing-product-discussion/105566-cheap-replacement-crspotless.html

 

[baseballlover1]

yepp now i feel kindof bad about wanting this wax. I think maybe another high end wax (but not 2k) would be in the cards for me soon. But i think that eventually i will want to buy this wax. Maybe dodo supernatural is in the cards soon, i got a small sample but am saving it for a special car.



I think that soon i will want to place a couple large orders for;



PO85RD

PO87MC

3m Adhesive Remover

Jeff Workstat Prime

CR Spotless

another rotary

more pads... i am wondering when those 4 inch LC beveled edge pads are going to be coming out (if they even are)

pressure washer

foam cannon

P21S 100%

some more zaino



along with a few more things. Maybe that would replace the vintage.

 

[dsms]

This of course is based on your clientele but I honestly think *MOST* customers do not care about what product or more importantly the brand of product that is used on their vehicles. They do however care more about your experience and knowledge along with the caution you take when handling their vehicle ---I have found this to be key! Show a customer you are professional and respectful and they will trust you. You dont sell the products you use, you sell yourself IMO. The quality branding is just icing on the cake at best. Good products dont make good detailers, you can do a half assed correction and top the finish with Royale and it still wont look good. Heck even cars that are prepped and perfected and finished with Divine or some other uber wax dont half as good as those prepped and perfected topped with Zaino or Megs. I have come to the realization that so many people, including myself get a bit "caught up" sometimes in brand name products when it comes to detailing not so much for the customers and because it sounds good to them from a buisness standpoint but more for our own personal ego's and desires. Daniel you have to ask yourself this, do you really want Vintage because you can use it as a staple in your marketing mix which will in turn lead to more high end business or deep down is that a ruse to make you feel better about spending 2k on a wax you want partly because of its high quality and partly because it has prestigious name and comes in an awesome container.... :nixweiss

 

[imported_weekendwarrior]

Take Todd for example...he could polish out a car, then take the cheapest wax on the shelf at Big Lots and put it on top of his polishing job, and the car will look awesome - and his clients would still be just as happy I'm sure. We all know that the majority of the end result is achieved through the prep and not the wax/sealant.

 

[lbls1]

I am a little late to the question, so I'll answer as best as my experience will allow.



1. How many layers of zymol vintage is necessary for 1 year of durability? I can see myself putting on 3... does that sound right?

A: This entirely depends on whether the car is exposed to the elements. You can apply as many layers as you see fit, but from my experience with layering wax for outdoor cars, I have had the best durability from 8-10 coatings of carnauba. The most important question for me would be: How many layers would you need to see vintage's full prowess. My answer would start off like this: It depends on what would look good in your eyes, but IMO you would only need from 1 to 3 layers to see vintage's full spectrum. My tastes are different in that I like a lot of wax, but for me Vintage's best punch is from layers one or two, and LAYER #6!



2. How long is it necessary to cure in between layers? A: A minimum of a day, but IMO its best to give it at least a week. EGs are sensational when they age.



3. Would Royale be a better choice for me since im aiming for the "wow" factor? i could wait another year and keep saving.A: As much as I rave about the zymols, in this case I'd have to say no, especially if you are starting out with the EG's. In fact, if you've never tried any zymol, I would not advise anyone to go right to vintage. I feel that it is important to experience the different aspects of other zymols and their competitors in order to actually see whether a zymol is bringing in the results and the improvement that you are expecting. You (at least I was) would be quite surprised in seeing how effective some of zymol's other models, such as carbon and titanium, can render paint with the right handling. I feel that starting off at the top would rob you of the experience in comparing other products and judging their performance to each lsp's set ability range (price and features).



4. i cant really think of another as its late but im sure it will come back to me.

A: Good, because I've said a mouthful already, so make plans to pick a couple of waxes vs. a zymol, and plan a good competition between them.



Good luck!

 

[imported_Picus]

I have to play devils advocate. Sometimes when it comes to high end detailing having products like Vintage around does matter. Sure, you could buy a CR spotless and an extractor and blah blah blah with that money, but you can also use other money for it. Or someone might say, hell...you could have used that money you spent on the CR spotless to get Vintage. It's all relative.



You can talk about how P21S 100% looks all day long, you can tag on the price of high end waxes, the fact is they have their market and always will. A ton of it is marketing, but a good portion of it is still performance. I know at least one guy that can spot the difference between Vintage and P21S 100%; me.

 

[imported_User Name]

Perfect! I've got some land and a bridge I'd like to sell ya in Florida. Interested?

 

[lbls1]

I have to play devils advocate. Sometimes when it comes to high end detailing having products like Vintage around does matter. Sure, you could buy a CR spotless and an extractor and blah blah blah with that money, but you can also use other money for it. Or someone might say, hell...you could have used that money you spent on the CR spotless to get Vintage. It's all relative.



You can talk about how P21S 100% looks all day long, you can tag on the price of high end waxes, the fact is they have their market and always will. A ton of it is marketing, but a good portion of it is still performance. I know at least one guy that can spot the difference between Vintage and P21S 100%; me.

And I can tell. I love P21s, as it is an excellent wax within its price range and as compared with similar products. But to say that it could outperform the likes of an EG or Victoria or SW without a comparison experience is like..............Trying to sell someone a bridge,,,,,,,,,,,,couldn't help it lol!

 

[Eisen Hulk]

I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, but I do have a serious question. Do you honestly think if you took two identical cars, gave them the exact same detail, except you top one with Vintage and one with P21s 100%, you think you could tell the difference? Maybe you can, maybe you can't. If so, you've some exceptional eyes. Again, I'm not being sarcastic, but simply making an observation. I also think you could possibly be somewhat biased toward Vintage.



I'm not saying there isn't a market for it. There has to be, otherwise they wouldn't still be making/selling it. It just seems like as a guy (Dan) who's essentially trying to make it up to the big time, he could use $2000 for other items. Again, this is coming from a guy (Yours truly) who's detailing as a side business/hobby, although I take this VERY SERIOUSLY! I will never own Vintage, but I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy it. It'd be nice to be in the financial situation where I could buy a $2000 wax.



Bottom line, to each his/her own.

I have to play devils advocate. Sometimes when it comes to high end detailing having products like Vintage around does matter. Sure, you could buy a CR spotless and an extractor and blah blah blah with that money, but you can also use other money for it. Or someone might say, hell...you could have used that money you spent on the CR spotless to get Vintage. It's all relative.



You can talk about how P21S 100% looks all day long, you can tag on the price of high end waxes, the fact is they have their market and always will. A ton of it is marketing, but a good portion of it is still performance. I know at least one guy that can spot the difference between Vintage and P21S 100%; me.

 

[lbls1]

There could be differences in sharpness of the reflective ranges of images between different lsps, in judging one product versus the other. Other things to look for is the intensity of the finish using the same amount of lsp quantity (no sealants, other waxes or glazes beneath each competing lsp), vibrant color response between colors, and fidelity (sharpness and clarity) of the finish, color and reflection of a paint surface between lsps.



A test should involve adjacent test panels (obviously) in natural lighting and in different lighting levels. You could also record the finishes as long as you have a very good digital camera.



Point blank stares under some high intensity lighting may or may not show big differences, but natural lighting could reveal a novel of differences between lsps (or at least IMO).

 

[gmblack3]

Some here might be able to see differences between LSPs, but I am going to bet that your client can not. I love showing clients the finish before I put a LSP on the car. Fire up the halogens and put a brinkman in the clients hand. In the end this is what will seperate you from the competition.

 

[imported_Picus]

I'm not trying to be an a$$ here, but I do have a serious question. Do you honestly think if you took two identical cars, gave them the exact same detail, except you top one with Vintage and one with P21s 100%, you think you could tell the difference? Maybe you can, maybe you can't. If so, you've some exceptional eyes. Again, I'm not being sarcastic, but simply making an observation. I also think you could possibly be somewhat biased toward Vintage.



I'm not saying there isn't a market for it. There has to be, otherwise they wouldn't still be making/selling it. It just seems like as a guy (Dan) who's essentially trying to make it up to the big time, he could use $2000 for other items. Again, this is coming from a guy (Yours truly) who's detailing as a side business/hobby, although I take this VERY SERIOUSLY! I will never own Vintage, but I'm not saying that people shouldn't buy it. It'd be nice to be in the financial situation where I could buy a $2000 wax.



Bottom line, to each his/her own.

Yes, I could tell. Sure, I could be biased. I own both, I paid more for Vintage. I'm almost positive if I've come off as anything in my 3 years here it's pretty objective. I've never posted a review, I've never pimped a product, I've always been forthright and honest about products when asked. If I thought something was as good for less money I'd say it. So far I haven't found it. Vintage looks good. It looks, to me, better than most stuff I've used. $1900 better? No. Does the entire package make it worth it to me? Absolutely. I've yet to come across a product that makes it as easy for me to clean a car. Combine that with the looks and the refills and it's worth it.



In terms of a business perspective - like anything it's all relative. I have a client with a GT3 RS and a 640GT *and* a GT2. That seems excessive to me, hell it probably seems like madness to a lot of people - to him it makes perfect sense. The cars are difference enough, and he has enough money, that it's worth it. It's like any hobby - I like speakers. Maybe some of you know this and maybe you don't; but speakers can be pretty pricey, and for every word we've written about waxes here on Autopia there are 100 miles of writing on which sets of speakers is the best, and just like waxes there is the consensus that once you reach a certain point, any improvement is going to cost you an exponential amount.



Lastly - for the guys who will inevitably preach about prep...yes, I get it. I'm almost positive most of you have seen me around here enough to know that I am not trying to sell something, or tell anyone that prep isn't what makes a detail.

 

[Eisen Hulk]

Very good response, Picus. Again, I wasn't attacking you for owning Vintage. If you say you can tell the difference, then your reputation on here can definitely back that up.



Thanks, man. Once again, that wasn't a personal attack.

Yes, I could tell. Sure, I could be biased. I own both, I paid more for Vintage. I'm almost positive if I've come off as anything in my 3 years here it's pretty objective. I've never posted a review, I've never pimped a product, I've always been forthright and honest about products when asked. If I thought something was as good for less money I'd say it. So far I haven't found it. Vintage looks good. It looks, to me, better than most stuff I've used. $1900 better? No. Does the entire package make it worth it to me? Absolutely. I've yet to come across a product that makes it as easy for me to clean a car. Combine that with the looks and the refills and it's worth it.



In terms of a business perspective - like anything it's all relative. I have a client with a GT3 RS and a 640GT *and* a GT2. That seems excessive to me, hell it probably seems like madness to a lot of people - to him it makes perfect sense. The cars are difference enough, and he has enough money, that it's worth it. It's like any hobby - I like speakers. Maybe some of you know this and maybe you don't; but speakers can be pretty pricey, and for every word we've written about waxes here on Autopia there are 100 miles of writing on which sets of speakers is the best, and just like waxes there is the consensus that once you reach a certain point, any improvement is going to cost you an exponential amount.



Lastly - for the guys who will inevitably preach about prep...yes, I get it. I'm almost positive most of you have seen me around here enough to know that I am not trying to sell something, or tell anyone that prep isn't what makes a detail.

 

[imported_Picus]

Very good response, Picus. Again, I wasn't attacking you for owning Vintage. If you say you can tell the difference, then your reputation on here can definitely back that up.



Thanks, man. Once again, that wasn't a personal attack.

:2thumbs: I know it wasn't. I would have asked the same thing before I spent a lot of time trying some of the EGs out. It's tough, because in the end it's all subjective. I mean Todd says P21S 100% looks as good or better than Vintage, and how can anyone say he is wrong, he has thousands of hours of experience under his belt.



For me Vintage is less about how good it looks and more about how easy it makes my life. I really can't quantify it unless I were to let you wash my car. At least in my experience so far, Vintage is what makes that easiest for me. With other products my car would get dirty (and yes, it gets pretty rank...shoemakers kids and all that), and it would look like a pit...and washing was, well, washing. With Vintage it almost always looks good, and come wash time it's noticeably easier. So ya, worth it for me, maybe not for others.

 

[Scottwax]

You'll get past the kid thing with time, there's just no way to shortcut from starting out to $350,000 cars. Do some rats, get your mistakes out, learn to finish perfect, and the big jobs will come.

Words to live by.



If you do good work, your customers will tell their friends, simple as that.



Spend less time worrying about what Paul Dalton uses and spend more time refining your skills, that is where the real payoff is.

 

[Bobby G]

Perfect! I've got some land and a bridge I'd like to sell ya in Florida. Interested?

Hey n00b... what's with the tude? Perhapse when you have a 1,000 posts under your belt you can get away with being a smart a$$ and not get called on it. :rules:

 

[Scottwax]

I know at least one guy that can spot the difference between Vintage and P21S 100%; me.

If P21S 100% is anything like the old version in terms of appearance, it will have a brighter, more sealant look than Vintage.



Personally, I can't see enough of a difference for the $40 more that Souveran costs over Carnauba Moose. Certainly doesn't look 3 times as good. Even on my high end customer's cars, I use CMW a lot more than Souveran. I definitely doubt I'd see a significant difference between CMW and Vintage that it would be worth the extra $1980.

 

[imported_Picus]

If P21S 100% is anything like the old version in terms of appearance, it will have a brighter, more sealant look than Vintage.



Personally, I can't see enough of a difference for the $40 more that Souveran costs over Carnauba Moose. Certainly doesn't look 3 times as good. Even on my high end customer's cars, I use CMW a lot more than Souveran. I definitely doubt I'd see a significant difference between CMW and Vintage that it would be worth the extra $1980.

I did find P21S 100% to look more like a sealant than Vintage. But I definitely agree the differences are academic at best.



Like I said, for me Vintage is less about how good it looks (ya, it looks good, so does Souveran and CMW and P21S and Concorso and Megs 16 and Vic Wax and a hundred other waxes) and more about how it adds a little extra convenience to my life. It like my scissor lift; sure, I could detail cars without it; I did for a long time before I got it, but it really does make my life easier so to me it is worth it. Which reminds me, scissor lifts rock.



Back on topic: I absolutely agree 1000% with you guys that the OP will need to pay his dues before he is detailing high end cars, like all of us. No wax will let you skip that.

 

[blk45]

This applies to a lot of trades, not just detailing. Just because you have expensive "tools", it doesn't mean you have skill. Anyone can buy something. As others have stated, let your work speak for itself.