High Power Cleaners

rhillstr

rhillstr

Recovering Postaholic
I have been seeing a lot of posting on high power cleaners and dilution ratios. I thought I'd share a tid bit of information I have on the subject.
In my old chemistry lab, the last resort for cleaning glassware that resisted all other solvents and cleaners was a base bath. The base bath was concentrated sodium hydroxide with a pH ~14. Very very caustic and nasty, this thing strips everything off...
Now my point:
This is the principle used in engine degreasers (not the citrus type), some APC's (Simple Green pH 9.5, EF Hi-intensity ~ pH 13), and other heavy duty cleaners like Fantastik (pH 12), Formula 409, etc. You know you have a high pH cleaner if it feels slimy on your skin and is hard to rinse or wash off.

If you look at any vinyl care guidelines they say DO NOT USE high pH cleaners because it will strip the plastic coating off the vinyl. Same goes for leather. Plastic will lose dyes and plasticizers which keep them soft, shiny, and flexible. Instead you should use cleaners with other methods of action like surfactants, enzymes, and emulsifiers.

So what dilution of Simple Green or EF Hi-intensity should you use?
Here is how the math plays out:

Neutral pH is 7.0 (the pH of pure distilled water)
The pH of EFHI is ~13.

What is the pH of EFHI if you dilute it 10:1? 12!
What if you dilute it 100:1? 11!
For every unit of pH you change it you dilute it by a factor of 10. So for 4 units of pH:
10x10x10x10 = 10,000:1

64:1 of EFHI might lower the concentration of the other cleaners to a safe level but the pH will still be 11.2

Any thoughts to add?
 
Hmm, what you say is true, and your math is right, but...well, I hate logic. I usually try to keep a nice distribution of SG, so 15:1 would ptu me around a pH of 8, so I guess im good.
 
I use EFHI just for engine and Tire cleaning and the tougher grease and tar spots not in the Interior. I use APC+ 13:1 for carpet cleaning I dont feel to safe useing it on vinyl so I use Meguiars #39 HD Vinyl Cleaner.
 
I agree. #39 is pH balanced. EFHI cleans tires like nobody's business. I love it for that. Engine compartment worries me only because I scrubbed down a Jeep Grand Cherokee with it and it had a hard time restarting due to the massive amount of water I had to use to rinse it off. My Acura had no problems with being cleaned and rinsed with EFHI water. By the way, I'm implying the water is the culprit and you really can't use EFHI w/o water. Well, maybe I should try to remove it with S&W when I'm done scrubbing! LOL :D :D
 
Im going to clean my Jeep grand cherokee with EF tommarow and use some engine kote. What parts did you really soak down Im going to cover the computer on the far left upper corner cause it seems most exposed.
 
That's exactly what I almost ruined. The thing started idling funny afterwards and my father-in-law decides to tell me after the fact that he pressure washed the engine once (he pressure washes everything that doesn't move fast enough to dodge him) and it ran funny then died. He took it to the shop and they replaced the compluter. It hasn't died this time though and appears to be running okay again...phew! :D
 
A computer replacement sounds really expensive now you got me scared to start cleaning the engine Im going to cover the computer up and disconnect the Battery also cover up the Alternator then just do the computer area by hand and such. Was it a 99 or Newer Jeep Grand Cherokee AKA [WJ].
 
Remember, if you disconnect the battery, it will reset the computer. Thats no big deal, just means that the car will seem a little sluggish for about 20-30 minutes while it remaps A/F ratios, RPM based timing advanced, and so on.
 
The battery has been disconnected for a couple of months. I will just let it idle for some time so it can get used to the idle rpms and other.
 
:yeah

This is something that I would be very interested in knowing.
Since I sometimes keep a vehicle for 10 or 15 years, I can do a lot of damage over that period of time.
While this is a very old thread, the information is still of value.

Charles
 
I found it. According to the Megs website MSDS the ph level of APC+ is 13.5 This would put it on par with SG and other cleaners mentioned on this site. Very alkaline

Actually it is higher than SG which is ph9

Would this ph level do damage?
 
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Hey rhillstr and Frozen, be carefull for the spark plugs distributor cap or coil packs. They are very sensitive to water. I'm not sure what the 4.6 liter engine in the Jeeps have but know the older ones with a 5.2, 5.9 or the 4.0 V6. The dist. is at the back of the engine almost under the wpier cowl. get water in them and your screwed. BEEN THEIR. Have to take off the cover and blow out t he water. Olny need one drop to make it miss fire and not run right. Best advice is to cover the coil packs and or Dist. and dont spend alot of time with water over the spark plugs.

Hope this helps.
 
Wow, I thought this one was dead...
Anyways, water is bad for anything electrical. Unfortunately some nameless manufacturers are still learning this little lesson. American cars seem to be the worst at this as mentioned earlier it seems to have attracted enough attention to be addressed these days. Japanese cars, to my limited knowledge, have never had this problem and I remember washing down the engine compartment in a '78 civic after rebuilding the head and tranny and it never missed a beat.

Good job locating the pH of APC Dalton. Man that stuff is caustic!! To answer your question at pH of 13.5 it is greater than 10,000 times more caustic than simple green. If you use this at full strength, I would NOT spray it. This stuff will permanently damage your eyes! Also gloves would be very recommended as well as sleeves. Do not get it on your skin either. Lastly yes it will damage many materials over time. I would restrict full strength use to wheels and tires only.
 
rhillstr said:
If you use this at full strength, I would NOT spray it. This stuff will permanently damage your eyes! Also gloves would be very recommended as well as sleeves. Do not get it on your skin either. Lastly yes it will damage many materials over time. I would restrict full strength use to wheels and tires only.
Click to expand...
APC+ isn't intended to be used at full strength, but...., what about potential damage at a ratio of 10:1?
That mixture seems to work quite well for me for most anything I use it on.
What I don't want is to have clean vinyl, carpet, mats, etc., that have been destroyed by the chemical action of that cleaning.
How is the ph level of the cleaning solution affected by the dilution ratio?
In other words, if the 1:1 ph is 13.5, what would the 10:1 ph be?

Charles
 
CharlesW said:

How is the ph level of the cleaning solution affected by the dilution ratio?
In other words, if the 1:1 ph is 13.5, what would the 10:1 ph be?

Charles
Click to expand...

Charles, from the first thread, i think your mixture of 10:1 APC+ has a 12.5ph lvl :bigscream. For every tenth multiple, the ph lvl reduces by one. Its been such a long time since i've taken chemistry but i'm not quite sure of its validity (theoretically can dilute below 7?) I'll report back if i can find anything.
 
filipzin said:
Charles, from the first thread, i think your mixture of 10:1 APC+ has a 12.5ph lvl :bigscream. For every tenth multiple, the ph lvl reduces by one. Its been such a long time since i've taken chemistry but i'm not quite sure of its validity (theoretically can dilute below 7?) I'll report back if i can find anything.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I came up with the same thinking. I just didn't want to accept it.
The APC+ that I have grown to rely on so much may be slowly destroying many of the things I have been trying to take care of. :(

Charles
 
Filipzin- Very good grasshopper! You are correct. You cannot dilute a base (pH above 7) to become an acid. To achieve a pH of 7 you would have to dilute the solution more than 10,000:1. In other words water is neutral until you put that stuff in it!
Charles W- that brings me to my point. APC and Eimann clean largely by using high pH's. To clean pH sensitive things such as vinyl, carpet, and painted surfaces use the right tool for the job- pH balanced carpet cleaner. They rely on surfactants, detergents, emulsifiers, and enzymes to clean. Using something like APC+ (despite it's devious name!) to clean them would be like using a daisy cutter to mow your lawn. Sure the grass is cut now but the neighborhood is gone! :lmfao
 
APC+ cant be that caustic it barly cleans brake dust of my wheels without scrubbing. Its great for carpets and wheel wells tires etc. Simple green isnt very powerfull either.
 
If the pH of APC+ is in fact 13.5 then yes, it most definately is caustic. Ability to remove brake dust is not directly proportional to caustic properties. Case in point- Spray & Wipe removes brake dust from my wheel just fine but it's not caustic at all.
 
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