Help with swirls in new paint

shirtman

New member
Had some issues with the black '99 Miata that I own (surprise given my forum name), and so i have new paint on the quarters, front fenders, hood, nose and front spoiler. The work was done at a local body shop, and they did a nice job with the rust repairs in the quarters and other body work. The paint work is another thing.



Since it was done, there have been very noticeable swirls in the finish. I brought it back once, and asked them to buff the hood, in particalar, as they were highly noticeable hollograms. Got it back without much improvement. I waited the 90 days that they recommended for outgassing, and hit it with some Griots #3 polish and after that, some 3M Perfect It SMR with my PC and an orange foam pad. Little impeovement with the Griots, and a little better but still very noticable after the 3M. Tried to overlay it then with 2 coats of AIO to see of that would fill in. It is better, but not great, and still perfectly noticeable. I also then saw what I think are flaws in the primer where it wither wasn't dried properly or something, as it looked like the paint had pooled and not hardened smoothly under the clear. Hard to describe.



Took it back to them, and to their credit, they are going to make good and paint the hood again. They saw the flaws in the primer/base and were willing to give it another go. I was disheartened thoough that they didn't seem all that convinced that the swirling issue would be alleviated, though. To me, that seems to be technique/product use issues. The finsih should be reasonably perfect IMHO when they are finished. Yes, I realize it is a black car and it shows all imperfections. Can swirls be in the base coat? They seemed to be particularly resistant to methods I have used in the past on the factory paint to make the finish almost flawless.



I don't know whether I am being unreasoanble and a perfectionist (I have been accused on other occasions) or this is just a case of them not knowing how to finish the surface properly.... Thye are re-doing the hood and I am afraid it will come out as it did before - less than up to snuff IMHO.



Your comments and thoughts are appreciated. Sorry for the long post.



Jeff
 
I doubt very much whether there is any problem in the basecoat. Swirls are caused by a rotating pad with a cutting compound. They are most often caused by a rotary buffer with a wool pad, although even a rotating foam compound pad can cause them. Swirls are actually very fine scratches left in the clearcoat finish. They can be removed with either a DA or better yet a DA with forced rotation. Use a foam light cutting pad with a very light cutting compound or polish to remove them. Start with a small section and experiment with progresivly coarser combo's until you find just enough to remove them. Once they are gone, polish and wax back to a swirl free finish. One other thing, as you finish each step of trial, wipe the surface with IPA to remove any residue that remains from the compound. If you don't do this the remaining residue is enough to fill the swirls leaving you to think they are gone when there really not.
 
Not sure what you mean by DA wioth forced rotation... not something that a PC 7424 does. I have the following products - which would you recommend?

Griots Garage polishes - 1, 2, 3, 4

3m Perfect It Polishing Compound

I have a couple of Sonus pads - white, black and three orange Griots pads (not sure who makes them for Griots)

If there is something that would work better - I am all ears.



Thanks for any help.



Jeff
 
A DA with forced rotation has the small orbital rotation of a DA and also has a relatively slow powered circular rotation. It will work faster than a standard DA to remove swirls and halograms. Available machines include the Makita BO6040 and the Flex XC 3401. For cutting pads wool cuts faster than foam. Cutting and Polishing compounds are classified on the Grit scratch they will remove. Scratches are described according to grit size, i.e. a 40 Grit scratch would be severe, a 2500 Grit scratch is very fine. Compounds and Polishes should indicate the maximun coarsenes they wiil remove. Of the products you have, the Groits polishes in the catalog don't show a specific grit, nor do you know the specific grit of your swirls. That's why you may have to experiment starting with the finest (Polish 4), then 3 etc. until you are sure the swirl is removed. The danger is every time you use a cutting compound to remove scratches, you are also removing clearcoat which is pretty thin to begin with. Groit's also says their orange pads can be used with all their polishes. If you have the later version of the PC with more power it is probably approaching the capability of a true DA. Make sure you polish long enough too, proably a minimum of 5 or 6 passes with medium pressure.
 
Barry Theal said:
Come see me in manheim, your 20 minutes away Ill help ya get that paint perfect!!!!:bounce



That's quite an offer right there. If Barry can't get it looking good, you're in trouble.
 
Thanks very much for the input and the offer Barry. I'd love to get some help with getting the car to a high standard. Although it is a daily driver, I try as best I can to keep the car looking as good as possible. As I said, the shop is going to take the car next Wednesday to get the hood reshot. Barry, I'd love to get together to see what you think about the result, and receive any guidance on how I can improve it. Manheim is just down the street! I imagine I should wait until it has some time to cure. They advise 90 days for wax/sealants to allow time to cure. Does that hold for swirl removal? I guess I am not too confident that it is going to come out much better than the first time with respect to that issue.



Jeff
 
Black99miata- No point recommending something with the Griot's polishes (#2 can work OK if used with a somewhat aggressive pad/machine) since you're so close to Barry :D



Fresh paint is sometimes kinda soft, which can be both good and bad. Run over and see what Barry thinks, he knows from repaints/etc.



Oh man...if I were that close to Barry I'd never correct a car again!
 
WOW! You guys were right. Barry is a magician! I ran down to his shop lathe this afternoon, and he had a look. It was obviously in pretty bad shape, and after a thorough evaluation, he started with 600 grit paper. I was a little hesitatnt going after it with that grit, but he said it was deeply scratched. He moved up through no less than 6 different grits all the way to 10,000!! The surface was perfect.... absolutely perfect. He topped it off with a quick coat of Zymol Vintage, and it looks fabulous. I never knew you could get a car to that high a gloss without even using polishes. Thanks again guys for pointing me in Barry's direction.



Jeff
 
Black99miata- Glad to hear (but not at all surprised) that Barry sorted things out. Heh heh, but I gotta say that *600* grit got my attention :eek: He's about the only guy I know that I'd let do that...
 
Black99miata said:
WOW! He moved up through no less than 6 different grits all the way to 10,000!!

Jeff



10,000 grit? Barry.....WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?! lol you're a madman ...or a glutton for punishment ...or both?

holy jazuz I'm kind of eager to see how the car looks and yea...I have to say I don't even think I even have a handful of people that I would trust with even 3k grit but I think it wouldn't be a second thought with even 400
 
Yes, frankly he scared me with the 600 grit but moved quickly with no pressure, What was most amazing to me was how he used only sandpaper to perfect the surface like I said - all the way to 100000. No polish.. He used some sort of gel or something with it (didn't get a lot out of him on that). All I know is that it looks great now!

Jeff
 
Black99miata said:
Yes, frankly he scared me with the 600 grit but moved quickly with no pressure, What was most amazing to me was how he used only sandpaper to perfect the surface like I said - all the way to 100000. No polish.. He used some sort of gel or something with it (didn't get a lot out of him on that). All I know is that it looks great now!

Jeff

You sure 100000 was a sandpaper and not a leather pad with compound? lol
 
Black99miata said:
WOW! You guys were right. Barry is a magician! I ran down to his shop lathe this afternoon, and he had a look. It was obviously in pretty bad shape, and after a thorough evaluation, he started with 600 grit paper. I was a little hesitatnt going after it with that grit, but he said it was deeply scratched. He moved up through no less than 6 different grits all the way to 10,000!! The surface was perfect.... absolutely perfect. He topped it off with a quick coat of Zymol Vintage, and it looks fabulous. I never knew you could get a car to that high a gloss without even using polishes. Thanks again guys for pointing me in Barry's direction.



Jeff



I see Barry has already master'd the new beta sanding system. It amazing how sandpaper can actually refine and create an incredible level of gloss. The sandpaper ratings are a little different than conventional papers. The 600 is more like 1000 and the 10,000 is like ~15,000.
 
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