Help with Basic Rotary Setup

C

CleanGSR

New member
I've been using the PC for a couple years now and I'm ready to make the rotary jump. I plan to only use rotary for the first step to get heavier stuff out and finish with the PC. Possibly 2 rotary step + 1 PC step occasionally.



I'm wanting to basically take a 3-4 step PC process and knock it down to 2 still finishing with the PC (for the second step).



So.....what is a simple setup (not counting the rotary) that will finish down enough that the PC can finish in 1 step? Here's my thoughts.



Purple Foamed Wool - I see a lot of people saying this pad has nice cut but finishes down really well....



Meg's 83 and Megs 105? I like Megs 80 so thought the 83 and 105 combo would work nice.



I'd use 83 when possible and if it's really bad try 105 (after some experience w/ rotary)



Both should finish down well enough for the PC + 80 to get it LSP ready I would think.



I've also heard a lot about ultrifina. Where does this fall in the cut scale against 83 and 105 and how does it finish down?



Any help would be appreciated. Like I said, I'm not going full force with rotary yet, but just planning to add it in as the first step to get places quicker and better.
 
I'm sure no Rotary-Meister, but I use it the way you plan to. So maybe some of the following might be helpful:



I don't want any concealing that I can avoid; I expect to have an imperfect finish when I'm done with the rotary (I finish by PC/Cyclo), but I want to really know just *how* imperfect it is. So I don't use products like #83 that can do a bit of concealing (in this case I suspect it comes from the Trade Secret Oils). I use my old faves from the 3M PI-III line, but perhaps you might want to look into Presta, High-Temp, or Menzerna as well as that M105.



I don't really like #80 by rotary...it too can conceal things and it just doesn't seem all that rotary-friendly a product (clumping, loading the pad if you use too much, other issues if you use less). I agree it's nice by PC and even by hand, I just don't like it by rotary.



Finishing polishes like Ultrafina (which I haven't used) and 1Z High Gloss (which I have used) are very, very gentle. They might eliminate your need to finish by PC but they probably oughta be used *after* you have things all corrected. FWIW I like doing a final burnish-pass with my 1Z High Gloss via Cyclo and others have used Ultrafina by PC/etc. IIRC.



On some very hard clears, the #80/PC final polish might not be quite aggressive enough. I've had this happen on Audis. Gee, sounds like I'm all down on #80 and that's not the case!



If I were starting from scratch (uh...pun) I'd probably get M105, Presta 1500, some lighter/no-filler polish, and either the Ultrafina or the 1Z High Gloss.



I'd also look into the Edge system. I find centering the pads to be just a little tricky (even with the center holes/etc.) and it's more important to get 'em centered just right with the rotary than with the PC/etc.
 
From reading several M105 threads, it seems one of the consensus is to cut with M105/heavy or light cutting pad, polish with SIP/polishing pad (if necessary), and finish with Ultrafina/light polishing or finishing pad.



This is exactly what I plan on doing with the '89 BMW 525i I have sitting on my driveway once I find the time.
 
+1 on the 1Z Hochglanz (High Gloss) polish. It works very well with a PC/UDM machine; it breaks down readily, but still has enough umph to put a fine gloss on harder paints with a PC. Pats300zx gave me the idea to try it, and sure enough, it really works well with a PC. It also works very well with a rotary. In fact, I think it would be about the very easiest polish you could use for someone just starting out with a rotary. Just work it at less than 1k RPM until it disappears, and you're done. Keeping the speed that low, and the fact that it disappears (finishes out) so rapidly, greatly reduces the possibility of damaging the paint. It's even easier to use than Ultrafina, believe it or not... Ultrafina recommends higher RPM's, which equals greater chance of damaging your paint. It's also quite inexpensive. I paid 25 bucks for a liter. It is a Ceramiclear rated polish, too. Of the finishing polishes I've used, it is definitely the easiest polish to use. Two applications with a rotary or PC will give you a beautiful shine.



If you want to try your hand at finishing out with a rotary instead of the PC, you'd be hard pressed to do better than the 1Z.
 
Wow....lot's of great advice really quick...gotta love autopia.



Denzil said:
From reading several M105 threads, it seems one of the consensus is to cut with M105/heavy or light cutting pad, polish with SIP/polishing pad (if necessary), and finish with Ultrafina/light polishing or finishing pad.



This is exactly what I plan on doing with the '89 BMW 525i I have sitting on my driveway once I find the time.
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Sounds like a good combo, but I was hoping to get into a 2 step for a lot of these rather than 3 (which I already am doing with slow progress). I understand that 3 steps with 2 being rotary will be much faster than PC, but I just want to be as efficient as possible. I thought that M105 finished down nice enough (not perfect though), to be able to finish up with one set after the 105.......is that not right?



Nobody's really commented on the purple foamed wool. Does that sound like a good all around "general" pad to start with for my rotary compounding? I'll add to it later, but just looking for a good start right now.
 
CleanGSR said:
Wow....lot's of great advice really quick...gotta love autopia.











Sounds like a good combo, but I was hoping to get into a 2 step for a lot of these rather than 3 (which I already am doing with slow progress). I understand that 3 steps with 2 being rotary will be much faster than PC, but I just want to be as efficient as possible. I thought that M105 finished down nice enough (not perfect though), to be able to finish up with one set after the 105.......is that not right?



Nobody's really commented on the purple foamed wool. Does that sound like a good all around "general" pad to start with for my rotary compounding? I'll add to it later, but just looking for a good start right now.
Click to expand...



Yeah, very much so. It finishes down much better than you would think a wool pad could. And since it is wool, you get the benefit of it not heating up as fast as foam. Make sure you get a wool pad spur, though. A brush will tear up a purple foamed wool pad fast. You'll need to spur the pad after just about every application. Especially with heavier compounds like M105 or Power Gloss. SIP doesn't clog it up as fast, but you'll still need a spur.
 
SuperBee364 said:
Yeah, very much so. It finishes down much better than you would think a wool pad could. And since it is wool, you get the benefit of it not heating up as fast as foam. Make sure you get a wool pad spur, though. A brush will tear up a purple foamed wool pad fast.
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Sounds good. I'm kind of anxious to get the rotary and start learning. Need to do a couple more "slow" jobs with the PC to save up for the rotary though.
 
From my experience m105 can be finished as a two step with ultrafina. You may still be left with a few RIDs, depending on how many time you attempt with the m105 (and of course, how deep the RIDs are) but the finish should be completely swirl free. I recommend this two step for an average car that needs an average amount of correction. For heavy correction I would do the three step. For a car that is in nice shape, a nice polishing would probably be SIP and then UF but I can't tell you from experience because I am waiting for my first order of SIP to get to my shop.



Im sure many of you guys will agree, M105 and then UF will result in a super nice finish in little to no time. With the speed on both these products, you could do a half assed job in about 2 hours and still come up with a better finish than most cheap details.
 
Not looking to do a half-assed job at all.....not even possible by my standards. However most clients that want a buffing, just want it to look shiny. Getting the car as shiny as possible, while not perfect (i.e. not all rids removed), will be/is my ultimate goal on most details. Occasionally I'll get the customer that wants that extra care taken for it to reach as close to perfect as possible. On those cases, I'll be open to 3 or even 4 steps if needed. Most customers I get though, just don't care enough to spend the extra money on that.



2 steps is what I do a lot of the time now w/ SSR2.5 orange LC and M80 white LC both w/ PC and it gets a really good finish. However, replacing that first step with something like 105 and rotary or SIP and rotary should get better results than my current setup and wouldn't be halfassed in my opinion.



Somebody else PM'd me recommending Optimum Polish and a polishing pad w/ rotary to follow up after 105 (or whatever I use first). This sounds like a good idea too, since I know Optimum Polish has a longer working time to remove whatever was left behind.
 
CleanGSR- That explanation of what you're doing now makes me think that yeah, you *will* really benefit from the rotary, even if you don't fully exploit its potential (at least at first, I bet you'll quickly, say, surpass my skill level as you do more vehicles).



I don't quite get OP to finish out as nicely as I'd like via rotary, but I suspect it's just a matter of user-error; I just don't like super-long work times and I'm probably not modifying my technique enough to accommodate that. I gotta Prepsol/etc. after using OP too, if I want to see where things really stand. But that's just me and if you *like* the way OP behaves, then you might very well like it as your #80-replacement-type product. Heh heh, if you do like it I oughta sell you my spare bottle of it :D
 
Yeah, I personally hated the way OP behaved with the PC. Took forever to work it and didn't seem to correct any better than 80. I'll probably order a 4oz sample of OP and see how it works.



I'm still conflicted about ultrafina though. I see some people saying that it won't have much cut and other's saying that M105 followed by ultrafina is the combo to have. I just don't want to have excess of stuff around that I don't want/can't use since I've done that many times in the past.
 
CleanGSR, don't get me wrong, I love Ultrafina. I've only had it for a week, but it has definitely replaced Menzerna PO106FF for me. Having said that, I really think you should look at 1Z Hochglanz as a finishing polish for your first time at bat with a rotary. The 1Z likes slow RPM's. Slow RPMS = safer on a rotary. Ultrafina likes high RPMs. 1Z also works *very* well with a PC.
 
I would get M105, SIP, and Ultrafina. You'll be all set for any combo with those 3.



I.e.

Medium correction: SIP/orange/1500rpm -> Ultrafina/pc

One-step on a light color: SIP/White/PC

Heavy correction: M105/purple wool/1500rpm -> SIP/white foam/1500rpm -> Ultrafina/white/pc

Extreme correction: M105/black wool/1500rpm -> SIP/orange foam/1500rpm -> Ultrafina/white/pc

And the combo to have once you get comfortable with the rotary: M105/purple wool/1500 -> Ultrafina/blue foam/1800



Meg's #80 and Optimum are fine polishes, I just personally prefer Ultrafina for finishing, as it leaves a great finish, is one of the easiest to use finishing polishes, and is arguably the fastest to use finishing polish out there.
 
Ah...I see now where you mentioned that above. Overlooked that somehow.



Right now I'm thinking



Rotary Buffer (haven't decided what brand but leaning toward the Makita)

Purple wool (2 or 3 of them to start with)

Wool Pad Spur

***Need Polishing/Finishing Pad for use with 1Z or equivalent(to finish hologram free)***

M105

SIP (for when 105 isn't needed) still considering 83 though

1Z Hochglanz or 106ff (for after SIP or 105)



Thinking of going for the 106ff instead of 1Z because of the following comments by SuperBee in his review of 1Z but like the fact that 1Z works in at lower rpms which would help prevent holograms for a rotary noob like me.



"It doesn't seem to have as much bite as 106"



and



"Given the choice between the two, I like 106 better"
 
themightytimmah said:
I would get M105, SIP, and Ultrafina. You'll be all set for any combo with those 3.



I.e.

Medium correction: SIP/orange/1500rpm -> Ultrafina/pc

One-step on a light color: SIP/White/PC

Heavy correction: M105/purple wool/1500rpm -> SIP/white foam/1500rpm -> Ultrafina/white/pc

Extreme correction: M105/black wool/1500rpm -> SIP/orange foam/1500rpm -> Ultrafina/white/pc

And the combo to have once you get comfortable with the rotary: M105/purple wool/1500 -> Ultrafina/blue foam/1800



Meg's #80 and Optimum are fine polishes, I just personally prefer Ultrafina for finishing, as it leaves a great finish, is one of the easiest to use finishing polishes, and is arguably the fastest to use finishing polish out there.
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I think 105, SIP, and Purple wool are all definates so far. I might try and track down samples of ultrafina, 106ff, and 1z so I can see which works best for me. Sounds like LC white is a good final pad for the rotary as well as the pc.
 
SuperBee364 said:
CleanGSR, don't get me wrong, I love Ultrafina. I've only had it for a week, but it has definitely replaced Menzerna PO106FF for me. Having said that, I really think you should look at 1Z Hochglanz as a finishing polish for your first time at bat with a rotary. The 1Z likes slow RPM's. Slow RPMS = safer on a rotary. Ultrafina likes high RPMs. 1Z also works *very* well with a PC.
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Wait....you said that ultrafina definately DID replace PO106ff for you? So ultrafina must still have some decent cut to replace 106ff for you.
 
CleanGSR- It seems like some of these are quite different behavior-wise...the 1Z at least sounds quite different with regard to working time and "how clean it wipes off". I can easily seeing people having their preferences.



Whereas the Ultrafina is sometimes described as "oily" (no, no, not *that* kind of oily...I don't mean anything negative..) the 1Z seems very "not oily"; I want to say "dry" but that's not it either. Seems like a more water-based product instead of an oily one but still has lots of lubricity. Oh [#^&*] I can't verbalize this properly :confused:



Somebody else here who was involved in the "does 106ff ever conceal defects" uproar (he believes that it *can*, at least under some circumstances; I don't have an opinion on this subject but I don't want to have any surprises either) told me that one of the things he likes about the 1Z is that it absolutely does *not* conceal anything under any circumstances. The whole discussion I had with him was, IMO, interesting at the very least and was one reason why I picked the 1Z for my new-tech finishing polish. Just a FWIW, which might not be too much....



I wish somebody with a better knowledge base than mine would compare a bunch of these products and give us a rundown.
 
CleanGSR said:
Wait....you said that ultrafina definately DID replace PO106ff for you? So ultrafina must still have some decent cut to replace 106ff for you.
Click to expand...



Yeah, the review of 1Z was done before I had received the Ultrafina. Don't get me wrong, I really like all three polishes (1Z, PO106FF, and Ultrafina) each have their strengths and weaknesses. Having said that, the 1Z is by far the easiest for someone new to the rotary to use, and it also works *better* than PO106FF on a PC. PO106FF takes a very long time to break down with a PC. You really can't lose with the stuff...That being the 1Z Hochglanz.
 
Accumulator said:
CleanGSR- It seems like some of these are quite different behavior-wise...the 1Z at least sounds quite different with regard to working time and "how clean it wipes off". I can easily seeing people having their preferences.



Whereas the Ultrafina is sometimes described as "oily" (no, no, not *that* kind of oily...I don't mean anything negative..) the 1Z seems very "not oily"; I want to say "dry" but that's not it either. Seems like a more water-based product instead of an oily one but still has lots of lubricity. Oh [#^&*] I can't verbalize this properly :confused:



Somebody else here who was involved in the "does 106ff ever conceal defects" uproar (he believes that it *can*, at least under some circumstances; I don't have an opinion on this subject but I don't want to have any surprises either) told me that one of the things he likes about the 1Z is that it absolutely does *not* conceal anything under any circumstances. The whole discussion I had with him was, IMO, interesting at the very least and was one reason why I picked the 1Z for my new-tech finishing polish. Just a FWIW, which might not be too much....



I wish somebody with a better knowledge base than mine would compare a bunch of these products and give us a rundown.
Click to expand...



Sounds like 1z is exactly what I need. Even if it takes 2 passes of 1z to get where I need, it would be quicker (I'm sure) than 1 pass of 80 (or similar) with the PC.



The one thing I want to be sure of is that I don't conceal anything, particularly any holograms. Being new, I don't want to take a chance on buffer trails showing up 2-3 weeks later because I just concealed them with my final polish instead of removing them. I also like the idea of low rpms and great compatability with the PC (in case I can't manage to finish down with rotary).



So



I think I've got the setup I need



Makita Rotary

Purple Foamed Wool

Wool Pad Spur

White LC pads

Black or Blue LC pads



M105

SIP

1Z





Edited for Black/Blue Pads
 
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