First off:
Woah, I never expected people to post such long, detailed, serious replies, thank you very much!!!
Accumulator said:
I'm no rotary-Meister either, there are plenty of guys here how are a lot better with one than I'll ever be. I understand that it's just not all that easy to become truly proficient with that Makita, even if some people here do make it sound like a no-brainer. And I'll readily admit I don't *like* using rotaries (which isn't a big deal these days, I use other machines and my rotaries just gather dust). That said...
Getting burn-throughs means you're doing something *VERY* wrong. Yeah, you know that and no, I don't mean to beat you up over it. I just wonder if you realize *HOW* wrong things are going...I mean...*one* burn-through on a normal vehicle would be an incredible mistake even if you're getting really aggressive.
On the repainted cars, you ought add more coats of clear so you have more to work with. Between the sanding and the buffing you're gonna be taking a lot of it off. My painter add additional mils of clear for just this reason.
On cars with oem paint, you need to be a lot more gentle and adjust your mindset.
Go gradually. It's not just a matter of going through the clear, you don't want to thin it very much or it'll lose all its UV protection. On factory clear you shouldn't take off more than half-a-mil and that's not much.
Wetsanding- maybe you oughta just do less of it. Or at least finish with a finer paper so you don't have to get so aggressive with the buffer. But an adequate amount of clear has to be there or you shouldn't do any of this stuff. Better orange peel than having to repaint IMO. So don't wetsand factory paint unless you have a very good reason and provide enough extra on repaints so you have plenty to work with.
Wrestling with the rotary usually means you're pressing too hard and/or need to tilt it just a *LITTLE* bit (assuming the pad/product/etc. is right). Don't tilt too much or you'll get awful holograms and/or more problems due to concentrated effort at the edge of the pad.
Don't press hard with the rotary, let the pad/product do the work most of the time. Try using the smaller pads more; I prefer 6-6.5"" or even 4" for most jobs.
Learn to polish "away from/off of" edges. Learn to feather the trigger. Learn to stay off corners except for an easy fleeting pass.
Break the job up into small mini-projects and take a short break after each one..do the top half of a door and take a few minutes to wipe off the pad, inspect what you've done, think about the next thing.
Keep notes about how jobs go and study those notes.
Work on *NEVER* being careless, not for one second (literally). I've often posted that *IMO* rotary use depends on a certain mindset; if your mind wanders or you're the sort of person who gets frustrated and/or careless, then I simply wouldn't recommend using a rotary (or some other tools I can think of). There are plenty of other machines that'll do the job and that are more forgiving of little lapses in your attention.
Maybe you oughta consider using a Flex or even a PC :think:
When you post that "My biggest problem is that once I get aggravated, I get careless and that always results in more damage... " I think to myself that you simply should never fall into that problem-aggravation-carelessness-more problems-more aggravation loop. In the bigger-picture sense of things, I'd try to work on that so it simply isn't part of how you go through life.
I am definitely going to be laying more clear down in the future, especially for my next project which is going to involve several colors and designs. The clear is air dried, not baked.
I'm self taught rotary buffer, but tried to soak up as much info as I could off of here. Don't worry, all the cars I work on are my own/family haha.
I do press, usually at least mild to pretty aggressive, I thought that helped combat the grabeyness of the pad.
Buffing off the edges is something I do fine. I learned that on the first car. The burn through in the picture was not me trying to buff that corner, it happened after the wool pad grabbed part of the panel next to it and threw the buffer towards that edge, and the edge of the wool pad rammed it pretty hard.
I never tilt the buffer except slightly when around edges. I'll try that next time.
Jakerooni said:
mmm.... Where to start??? :think: First off some questions... How long are you waiting after painting before you try to buff this stuff out? Is the paint baked on or are you relying soley on the harnder additives to cure the paint. This could very well be your biggest factor. If you're not baking the paint in you should be waiting at the bare minimum 30 days before you try buffing anything out. The paint is just to soft to correct properly.
Other things of note.. You're obviously pressing way too hard and getting way too aggresive with the paint... Try a softer approch this isn't a speed marathon. It will take time (sometimes a lot of time) but it will get there. Personally I think you're pads are another problem. Fresh paint moves to easily and foam pads tend to heat up way to quickly. Get some better wool pads (just as many options in wool these days as there is foam) Hard pads are a no no.... (Unless they are meant to be) toss them and buy new. Wool should NOT be hard by any means. (The twist of the wool determines the cut value unlike foam where it's based on the density of the foam) And since you're buring through your edges you should really tape them off until you get the hang of all this. That alone will save you hours of frusteration. (hand polish the edges after the rest and you remove the tape)
Now I could go into product selection but I've never personally used much of what you have on the table there so I can't comment if they are the correct products to use or not. I would defiantly feather out the wetsanding to at least 2500 grit if not 3000 grit. This again would save you a bunch of headache time.
And lastly... If you can find a good detailer in your area and just ask them if they could show you a few hands on tips when it comes to using the rotary. I show people all the time. So most shouldn't take offense or anything to it.
On the three cars I've painted, the first I waited 6 months (just a timing thing, hit winter etc.) and it took a very long time to sand (also bad orange peel, was first car I painted). The next two I sanded within 2 weeks, preferably the sooner the better because the paint is still soft and I can cut orange peel down with 2k grit no problems pretty fast. I also try to buff them as fast as I can because the paint is still soft making buffing easier. The burn-through's aren't from heat, its from having the fight the buffer 100% of the time, and sometimes it kicks it into an edge pretty hard.
I don't know any detailers in my area, but it would be beneficial if I could find one.
Yeah, I always press the pad medium/hard. I'll try it softly next time. I'm pretty sure my wool pad is very bad, its not soft and its fibers are like 1/2 long. its like a wash mitt that's dried and is hard as a rock, but not as soft.
fergnation said:
Most areas have classes that teach the right technique to polish. Maybe you should look into finding one and sign up for it. I have never been to one but it might help you.
First off a quick joke. I think you do just as good a job as most body shop polishing jobs!!!!!!
But seriously some suggestions. Smaller pads!! 6.5, 5 inch pads are much easier to work with. they can be controlled easier. LC or Megs soft buff 2.0. Try LC PFW pads. Also don't overlook what is right infront of you (Sonus yellow and white pads are fantastic pads and can be found on this website.)
Try stepping up the wet sanding a couple more stages. 2000, 2500, 3000 and higher. The higher you go with grit the easier the compounding will be. Meg Unigrit has wonderful pads and if you do a quick search on here you can find grit that goes even higher.
Stay away from those edges. Man, you must have really put your weight into that corner. The larger pads create much more heat and spin a lot faster. I would never touch one of those edges with a pad that big.
Products. I am not a fan of the poor boys polishes. Go straight to the easiest compound ever!! Megs M105 then bump it down to M205 or go with the Menz SIP, IP and others.
Get yourself a PC (preferable the new version when it comes out). they can use the smaller pads to get into the tight areas. The Flex is awesome but doesn't utilize smaller pads. You can do so much with these machines now.
"Take the time and money to spray a couple extra layers of clear. This will give you more room to work with."
Try this. The next time you paint a car. Don't worry about leveling the peel so much. Paint the car and level the paint a minimum. Very high grit paper. Then work on your poilishing only to bring out the gloss. Don't worry about the peel. After you have gained confidence in your polishing with the different steps admire the gloss and color. After you have done this (then and only then) go after small areas of peel at a time. This way you are working on small areas and it doesn't feel like the weight of the world is on your shoulders. Little victories is what you need. As these victories add up so does you confidence.
I don't think a PC would be good for me as I need it for compounding it and not just fine polishes. Its not terrible that I'm burning through as they are my own cars that I've painted, so in truth I just need to waste another weekend and some $ for more paint and I'll be right back where I started.
I have about 1/3 of the SSR line left so when I run out, I'll definitely go with Meg's 205 and 105, I feel SSR is a little bit confusing at times because 105 is a compound and 205 is a polish, but with ssr, there are 4 grades, and you have to figure out what pad and combination will take out the previous grades scratches.
Try this. The next time you paint a car. Don't worry about leveling the peel so much. Paint the car and level the paint a minimum. Very high grit paper. Then work on your poilishing only to bring out the gloss. Don't worry about the peel. After you have gained confidence in your polishing with the different steps admire the gloss and color. After you have done this (then and only then) go after small areas of peel at a time. This way you are working on small areas and it doesn't feel like the weight of the world is on your shoulders. Little victories is what you need. As these victories add up so does you confidence.
Thanks! I'll try this out. People keep saying to use higher grits like up to 3k but don't compounds remove like 1500-2k scratches? When I was in an autobody class in highschool, my teacher (remember, this was a body shop) only would sand to 1k, and then compound those scratches out (and it worked).
The peel is what drives me nuts the most. I need to sand to the edges to attack the peel because if I don't it is very obvious. When I detail a car, its easier because its not big deal if I stay away from the edges and also no big deal to use a polish on the edge in fear of burning through, but in my case I need to compound/sand right to the edge otherwise it stays obvious. Polishing is fine, all my problems I'd like to say are with compounding, and that's with using my orange LC pad (very stiff, but my friend owns one and his is very stiff also) and my wool pad (HARD).
Darkstar752 said:
I use DD Flat 5.5 inch pads with my Makita and they rarely grab. I also use the 3M Perfect-it backing plate, I think it helps a lot if you wanna spend the money.
What speeds are you using? I use 600 to spread, then one notch below 3 (~1300) and then go to 900 then to 600 to finish, with most of the 85% of the time spend at 1300. Stay away from edges, that is where you go through and where the paint is the thinnest. Also how soon are you doing this after you paint? Paint is extremely soft after it's sprayed so you won't be able to get good results because it is so soft. BTW I only use the weight of the buffer, I don't push down.
Polishes I use:
M105
PO203S
106FA
PO85RD
3M Ultrafina
I have it set for about 900-1200 for every pad/product. To spread the polish I just feather the trigger. The Jeep in the picture was painted 2 weeks ago.
Some final words...
I ordered a 3.5 inch foamed wool pad to go with my other 3.5 inch pads you see in the picture. The small pads were giving me much less of a hard time when I was trying to polish, but my most aggressive pad was only a light cut, so hopefully now with the new 3.5 inch wool pad, I can use the rest of the small pads like they were made to be used.
I also ordered a 6.5inch LC white and orange, as well as a 6.5 inch foamed wool. I herd good things about it and am eager to try it. One thing I didn't like about my LC pads is that they are curved and when you hold the buffer flat, it only has about 5 inches contact area (less with the stiffer pads), and when your trying to go around the edges of trim, you have to tilt it, but on the very edges of the pad, there is little/no polish since it doesn't touch the surface otherwise. These new LC pads are flat with sharp 90degree edges, so hopefully it will be much less of a pain.
Polishing is easy and I enjoy doing it because it works for me the way it should, all my problems reside in compounding.
Sorry guys, I'm a big noob who should have taken a class on this a long time ago, but I'm excited from all the advice you guys gave me and I can't wait to try this out again when the new pads come in. :lol:lol:lol
Thanks again for all the detailed replies!!
