Help deciding on a new SUV------>

As i stated in my last post i had planned on purchasing a RX330 as we have really enjoyed our IS300 and i do get a really good discount because i work for Toyota. We did however have multiple problems with our transmission in the IS300 which could not be repaired at the dealership for some reason.

I was really diappointed in the soft handling of the RX330 and the excess body lean during cornering. It did not feel stable enough to be safe in case of a sudden accident avoiding turn. It als lacked engine power for as far as i was concerned. What disturbed me the most was a loud creaking noise coming from the rear roof during our test drive, it sounded like a seam had not been welded properly?!? I was not impressed by the navigation system either. Its interior however was clearly the nicest in its class.

I work in the production control department at the Toyota/Lexus plant that actually builds the RX330 in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. I have noticed a sharp increase in build related defects and decrease in overall build quantity in the plant over the years. It has become obvious that all Toyota cares about is pumping out as many of these as possible and quality has suffered badly.
 
lammarwell said:
As i stated in my last post i had planned on purchasing a RX330 as we have really enjoyed our IS300 and i do get a really good discount because i work for Toyota. We did however have multiple problems with our transmission in the IS300 which could not be repaired at the dealership for some reason.

I was really diappointed in the soft handling of the RX330 and the excess body lean during cornering. It did not feel stable enough to be safe in case of a sudden accident avoiding turn. It als lacked engine power for as far as i was concerned. What disturbed me the most was a loud creaking noise coming from the rear roof during our test drive, it sounded like a seam had not been welded properly?!? I was not impressed by the navigation system either. Its interior however was clearly the nicest in its class.

I work in the production control department at the Toyota/Lexus plant that actually builds the RX330 in Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. I have noticed a sharp increase in build related defects and decrease in overall build quantity in the plant over the years. It has become obvious that all Toyota cares about is pumping out as many of these as possible and quality has suffered badly.
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Nice to see an honest assessment of a non-Detroit automaker for a change. Even more interesting that it comes from inside that company as well. Your last statement, regarding build quality and production numbers is of particular interest to me, because every single auto engineer I know, and that includes engineers working for suppliers (i.e. Visteon, TRW, Bosch, etc, ) who in turn work with engineers at Toyota engineering center in Ann Arbor, MI, and Nissan's engineering center in Farmington Hills, MI (both in Detroit's suburban nackyard - bet most of you didn't know that) ALL have said quality would drop as the production lines sped up at both Toyota and Nissan.



And none of these guys have an axe to grind against either Toyota, Nissan or any other automaker. They could care less who buys the components they design and build.



Oh, and an FYI - someone back a few posts stated that the component suppliers build to specification, indicating the automakers (be it Toyota, Ford, etc) draws up the engineering specs. NOT TRUE any longer. Now to be a supplier, you have to do the automakers engineering for them on what ever component you supply. That business model is uniformly being applied by all the automakers to bring design costs down. Which is also part of the business model that holds the component maker accountable for the warranty and recall costs associated with their parts.



BTW, lammarwell, I have family up your way. Well, not too far from you, over in Oakville. My cousin is originally from Windsor, and his wife from Kitchner. Small world, isn't it?
 
Len_A said:
Oh, and an FYI - someone back a few posts stated that the component suppliers build to specification, indicating the automakers (be it Toyota, Ford, etc) draws up the engineering specs. NOT TRUE any longer. Now to be a supplier, you have to do the automakers engineering for them on what ever component you supply. That business model is uniformly being applied by all the automakers to bring design costs down. Which is also part of the business model that holds the component maker accountable for the warranty and recall costs associated with their parts.
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Please explain why the quality of a door handle in a Civic/Corolla is superior to the door handle in an Escalade.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Please explain why the quality of a door handle in a Civic/Corolla is superior to the door handle in an Escalade.
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Who said the supplier is the same? With something that is a small part, do you have any idea how many suppliers they have?



You want to make a nearly apples-to-apples comparison, then compare the entire instrument panel/dashboard from a 2004 Nissan Quest with the same instrument panel/dashboard from a 2005 Ford Freestar/Mercury Montery. Visteon is the supplier. Same with eh entire front grill and headlight assemblies from both sets of vehicles.



Compare the Toyota Seinna's cargo area trim panels with the same panels in a Chrysler Town and Country. C&A is the supplier.



And the quality of something with tactile qualities, like a door handle is subjective. What strikes you as poor quality in the Escalades handle is perfectly acceptable to someone else.



Lastly, I am a vendor in this industry, and have been for the last twenty years, and I have family that are engineers and managers in this industry, both with automakers, Detroit & Japanese alike, as well as with suppliers. I can speak with some knowledge and authority, because this is where I make my living. Period. Oh, and BTW, even those Honda's North American Engineering Center is in Ohio, they have a rather nice engineering office in downtown Detroit, not far from GM headquarters. You why? Becaue most of the major suppliers are here. And Honda supplies the V-6 for the Saturn Vue. Go figure. And the Honda Pilot gets it's steros from Clarion, but it's DVD entertainment system from Visteon. Go figure.
 
Please don't think I'm questioning your knowledge, this is for me. While the quality may be subjective, the fact that the "chrome" comes off the handle of the Escalade and remains on the lesser car has to make you wonder. It seems as though the American manufacturers are picking the cheaper parts as opposed to the better parts.:nixweiss
 
SpoiledMan said:
Please don't think I'm questioning your knowledge, this is for me. While the quality may be subjective, the fact that the "chrome" comes off the handle of the Escalade and remains on the lesser car has to make you wonder. It seems as though the American manufacturers are picking the cheaper parts as opposed to the better parts.:nixweiss
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No offence taken.



It comes down to who the heck the supplier is. I can tell you horror stories of companies that have had to send in crews of employees or contractors, to the assembly plants recieving dock (parts receiving) to sort bad parts from good parts before they hit the assembly line.



By all rights, and I can state this with absolute authority, Detroits Big Three treat their suppliers like crap. Each and every day. The Japanese work with their suppliers like partners.



Why the difference. The Japanese companies in the USA/Canada have younger workforces and consequently lower pension and health care costs, so guess where the difference in dollars goes? Product development and supplier quality.



Welcome to my world.



And BTW, Nissan is having quality problems up the wazoo in their Canton, Mississippi plant, and Mercedes is having QC problems not only with the Alabama made M-Class, but also the German built C-Class. Warranty costs and dealer complaints for both companies are way up over 2002-2003 figures.



And Honda's 2003 & 2004 CR-V is under investigation for engine fires related to the placement of the oil filter (design problem) and the fires occuring after the first oil change.



Go figure.
 
I know this is a really old thread, but an interesting one nonetheless. I have just found myself with the need to upgrade my car size. I had a daughter 6 months ago, and a now a surprise one on the way. The V6 Accord we bought back in '03 is now seeming a bit small and hard to get a baby seat in and out of when the baby weighs over 15 lbs., and your wife is pregnant. Not too easy for her to lift. I have been thinking about a CR-V with gas prices the way they are. Although I don't like the thought of loading my family into an SUV with a 4 banger and only 160 hp. However, I love the Accord and have always been impressed by Hondas. I would love a Pilot, but a little bit out of my price range right now.
 
I think that they would make a big mistake if they did not look at a Nissan Murano and a Hunday Santa Fe.



Both are right up their alley, that Santa Fe is a real sleeper.
 
Korean car resale value is horrible. Not to mention the designs of those Hyundais are butt ugly. I work with a woman who owns a Kia and has already had to have three trannies put in it. That's why they give you that ten year warranty. By the time it runs out you're driving a whole new car cause the original parts are all dead.
 
I would look into a 2001 4runner. Great year, and before they made them ugly with the new body style. They are really great cars, and i love everything about them. Good resale value too.
 
I would recommend that they take a look at the Honda CR-V. I puchased mine 6 mo ago and love it. It is not a true off road vehicle, but it doesn't sound like that is in the list of priorities. It is great for tight spaces (you have to try the turning radius to believe it) has very flexible space options and is rated least expensive to own. The 4 cyl I-VTEC is very peppy and I had excellent results driving on ice this winter with the AWD and snow tires. I'm getting 20 mpg in town (mostly stop and go). A new 04 might still be found for under 20K, a new 05 goes for 21,800 or so here in Oregon
 
Jeep Grand Cherokee.

Why not get an SUV from the company that started the SUV?



My mom has had 3 Grand Cherokees (all leased), and the only problem she had, was that the Sway Bars squeecked in her '99 (the first year).



The 4 wheel drive system is more state of the art that Mercedes AWD, the 4.7, 4.7 H.O. will overwhelm you with unbelievable amounts of power, and the new 5.7 Hemi will out accelerate an Audi TT...And not to mention pull a 7,000 lb trailer with ease.



The new Mercedes interior will also not disapoint anyone.
 
Reliability? If your mom is leasing them it's more than likely short term and she's not seeing any long term problems.
 
I am a long time subscriber to Consumer Reports and am therefore very aware of the complaints against US manufacturers. However I have noticed a change in the attacks over the last few years. It is harder to make the case that US cars have a greater number of defects. The new complaints revolve around a lack of "refinement" or "old style technology" or unattractive interiors.



We own a 2002 Buick Rendezvous with 50k plus miles. Consumer Reports says it has below average reliability and a crummy interior. Last week we rode 150 miles round trip in a friends 2004 Toyota Sienna. CU Reports raves about the Sienna and its beautiful "upscale" interior. Well, every one to his own, but I find the Buick far superior in style and substance to the Toyata with its black plastic trim. Moreover, we've had zero problems with reliability with the Buick.



Remember that the CU Reports gets its quality reports from surveys of its subscribers. If these subcribers read the biased reviews of American cars in CU Reports, it can't help but color their opinion of their ownership experience.



Finally, having owned Japanese, German and US autos over the years, I believe they all have pluses and minuses. But the bias against US cars in the US stems from a very different era in the 70s and 80s when US quality was low and Japan's was high. In my opinion, times have changed.
 
slawinlaw said:
I am a long time subscriber to Consumer Reports and am therefore very aware of the complaints against US manufacturers. However I have noticed a change in the attacks over the last few years. It is harder to make the case that US cars have a greater number of defects. The new complaints rvolve around a lack of "refinement" or "old style technology" or unattractive interiors.



We own a 2002 Buick Rendezvous with 50k plus miles. Consumer Reports says it has below average reliability and a crummy interior. Last week we rode 150 miles round trip in a friends 2004 Toyota Sienna. CU Reports raves about the Sienna and its beautiful "upscale" interior. Well, every one to his own, but I find the Buick far superior in style and substance to the Toyata withe its black plastic trim. Moreover, we've had zero problems with reliability with the Buick.



Remember that the CU Reports gets its quality reports from surveys of its subscribers. If these subcribers read the biased reviews of American cars in CU Reports, it can't help but color thir opinion of thir ownership experience.



Finally, having owned Japanese, German and US autos over the years, I believe they all have pluses and minuses. But the bias against US cars in the US stems from a very different era in the 70s and 80s when US quality was low and Japan's was high. In my opinion, times have changed.
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Damn right times have changed. I have 120,000 miles on my 1996 Ford Taurus, and it didn't see the inside of a dealer for an unscheduled repair at all before nearly 90,000 miles were on the odometer.



Some of the criticism leveled at the domestic automakers is well deserved, and some of it prejudiced nitpicking.
 
SpoiledMan said:
Reliability? If your mom is leasing them it's more than likely short term and she's not seeing any long term problems.
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Ok, then...I had a '93 Jeep Cherokee Sport before my Dakota.



It was purchased in 1993 for the first owner.

The first owner crashed it in early '94/

A second owner salvaged it in mid '94, and used it as a daily commuter.

After 160,000 miles the second owner replaces the transfer-case (due to unknown reasons), and does all regular maintnance before selling it...to my brother.

My brother replaces the rear springs (due to sagging), and does a body overhaul (due to rust, and he works at Abra Auto Body), and puts on another 30,000 miles.

I was the 4th owner and put on a measily 8,000 miles in the 15 months that I owned it. The only things I did to it, were new tires, tinted windows, and a Pioneer/MTX sound system.

I sold it, thats right, my neighbor last year. After replacing the brakes it is now a daily comuter with 230,000+ miles. Still starts, runs, and drives like the day my brother bought.



Granted it was rusting again (after 3 years), and had a lot of wind and tire howling inside, and it shifted hard...but hey, it's 12 years old, and has a mechanical transmission. The 4.0l L6 in those things go FOREVER...Too bad they dropped that engine for '05.
 
I'm not flaming here but that's a lot of work to put into something for 230k miles. My dad has a '80 280ZX that is close to 300k miles and the only failure that he has had has been the head gasket. No rust, no tranny or any electronic issues. Even the sorry radio that came in the thing still works.
 
Rear springs, and a transfercase is a lot of work?

The body work was only poor maintnance. Everything worked, but I'm young and like stereos.

Everything else was just standart maintnance done on EVERYCAR.

Keep in mind that this Jeep was salvaged.



Plus read reviews on the new Grand Cherokees...They are practicly flawless.
 
Another vote for the Volvo XC90. My partner has one and it is very nice.



The amount of room inside is shocking. I don't know how they did it. The XC90 doesn't look particulary roomy from the outside but the inside is huge, huge. The third row seat is even usable by adults.



It has plenty of power and handles quite well. It's easy to park, corners acceptably, and the ride is smooth.



The only disappointing thing was the quality of the interior materials. I have always thought of Volvos as luxury, or at least near-luxury, cars. The XC90's interior is not luxurious at all. Acres of hard, dull plastic, and the leather seats feel like vinyl. My partner's old Explorer XLT was much, much, much more luxurious. Much more. But the interior of the Volvo, while not luxurious, is plenty durable. It doesn't seem cheap or flimsy or anything -- just not luxurious. It's more utilitarian.



The Aviator has the most luxurious interior of any car I've ever driven. It's like a private jet in there! Some of the high-end Lexuses (like the one that is a rebadaged Land Cruiser) have excellent, comparable interiors but I think the Aviator's is still best in class. It is nicer inside than the RX330.



The qualtiy of the ML320's/350's is supposed to be pretty bad. We are debating my wife's next car right now and she is looking at the ML350 and the E-class wagon. The E-class and the ML perform basically the same function -- both are large family cars -- but the E350 is something like $15,000 more. IMO, the price difference is due to the substantially higher quality of the E-Class.
 
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