Have Click N Brags "Jumped the Shark"???????

hotrod66paul said:
I love learning all I can about detailing and try to soak up as much info from any source possible. When a forum member goes to the trouble to post in a lengthy post his process in turning a nightmare correction into a sight to behold , I comment and try and express thanks for sharing his experience and explaining his technique. Only to be disappointed to have the original poster comment to all of his regular cronies and ignore those of us of lessor talent.
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Thank you for posting this. I try to refrain from browsing the Click N Brag section these days for this reason specifically. I've gone out of my way to compliment many people in their threads only to be ignored.
 
Looking forward to viewing the replies to this when I get back to the shop tomorrow. Also curious to see how off-the-wall some of the new threads are....and may I suggest:



1. How large was your kidney stone while detailing a vehicle?

2. Worst injury while detailing?

3. If your style of detailing were a wrestler, who would it be?



That last ones just to see if anyone would pick Jim Duggan
 
I guess I should cover another thing or two on my mind. More common mistakes I feel people make that could result in having less impact from their posts.



1. Long posts with boring cars.

Let's face it, many of us have done some of our best work on "normal" cars, but they're not exactly eye candy. If you worked on a fairly common car that wasn't exactly unique, and you didn't do anything unique to it, it can still be worth posting by all means. A much larger amount of people can relate to a $30k car than a $300k car, and I know most of my work is done on daily drivers; so I'd never want to put that business off. A local or car-dedicated forum is where that vehicle will do best, and if you try to contend with the latest from Auto Concierge or Street Dreams, I think you'll find yourself coming up short. Shorten the length up a bit and make the work more to the point by removing excess pics. As Scottwax would say: I don't need 10 claying pics or ten 50/50's to know you did that work: I believe you.

If you're posting something "normal" it should either be to the point or show-casing some amazing work.



2. You know where you're from, I don't.

A major reason to post Click & Brags are to let your potentially clients know you exist. Even though more people know I'm a detailer in Michigan than ever, I will continue to hammer that point home, because plenty of people still do not. Sometimes, detailers are looking for referrals to give a client who is moving or needs info for a buddy. Fellow detailers are only going to look so hard, and those that make sure everyone knows where they're from are likely to get the referral.

There are a lot of good detailers here, but chances are they're not all in your city/metro-area. Let us know where you're doing your awesome work from.



3. Long post? It better be worth it.

I doubt anyone wants to sit through a long boring thread, even on an exotic now-a-days. Every detailer in 2012 will be smart enough to pack a camera when they go an work on a Veyron SuperSport to upload pics. This is a form on entertainment, and just like movies, the only thing worse than a bad one, is a LONG bad one. I've felt I couldn't hit my page down button fast enough at times. It's ok that you're not Todd Helme with plenty of insightful information and nice computer graphics to pair. No Todd Cooperider, DJ Mayo or David Saunders behind a camera? Most of us aren't either, so skip some of the pics that are redundant please. It's even OK that you're not Barry Theal, Jesse from Apollo, or Mike Napoli that can make us laugh with witty words. Keep it to the point.

If you're posting more than 60-80 pics, I sure hope you're going to show some real cool stuff!



4. Think like Fermani.

This guy has been around forever and doesn't have to make a ton of C&B's because he's still all over making posts, chiming in, and staying relevant in the detailing community.

There's more than one way to become "known."



5. Sometimes its best to not say certain things.

If you post about a car you spent 1,000 hours on, and other pro's feel like they could replicate the work on a similar car in a fraction of the time, people will have a negative feeling about your work.



6. Sometimes its OK to just be honest.

The audience likes to connect to the author. If you haven't been doing it forever and are still learning something, or ran into a problem you now realize you shouldn't have, that's ok to say! We've probably been there ourselves. Screwed by a client? Someone cancel twice on you? Realize the polish that finished down flawless on that Vette doesn't finish down the same on your first Porsche? Yup.

If a car or client made you better because you learned something from it, let others know in the write-up. More experienced people will see how you've learned and grown as a detailer, and less experiences people will look up to you for sharing knowledge. It's a win-win!
 
TMD said:
Looking forward to viewing the replies to this when I get back to the shop tomorrow. Also curious to see how off-the-wall some of the new threads are....and may I suggest:



1. How large was your kidney stone while detailing a vehicle?

2. Worst injury while detailing?

3. If your style of detailing were a wrestler, who would it be?



That last ones just to see if anyone would pick Jim Duggan
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1. I had to have my wife call a client once to postpone, due to a kidney stone attack. I was lying on the floor moaning in extreme pain, she went into another room to make the call. Then we went to the ER for some nice pain meds.
 
As a lurker who is always trying to improve my skills, the older C&B's seemed more educational and went more in depth with the products and the process. As of late, the C&B's have become an advertising tool for some of the detailers who never post in any other section of the forums, and every detailing forum has the same cut and paste of the C&B. Heck, some of them read like a NASCAR driver trying to get in every sponsor. :lol



While I think it is probably very effective as a marketing tool, for a guy like me who visits often just sees them as a plug for their services. Maybe the C&B's have become a tool for recruiting potential customers instead of a learning tool for the fellow detailers? I'm always looking for the 'something different' and the ones who explain what they did, and why they did it (time constraints, budget constraints, etc.).



Of course this is just my opinion and I still read the C&B's, mainly for the huge turnarounds and the detailed write ups. I like the tough ones and the nasty extractor juice ones, too. :crazy:

Randy
 
I'm for one who doesnt post his job on any forums beside my local forum. I see way too much replicated thread copy/paste. I think that's freakin boring.



I don,t want to name any names but you know who you are. I guess you want to be everywhere but to some, me included, it just show a '' I'm the show! Look at me'' -attitude.



Too much copy/paste these days and the fact that everybody can do detailing. Not everyone can write nicely detailed review like you see on detailedimage but I bet you I can polish a ferrari with blacklight and apply ezyme on it just like the thread shows. Like you said.. show and tell is getting boring.. do something else.
 
I feel like this is a win/lose situation. People say that some threads are too long and don't show the right stuff and yet others say they are to short and copy/paste from other boards. I guess I missed the memo that had an industry standard to what a post should look like. Then again, like Marc said, when he used his examples, they were the examples of the peoples threads that get the most traffic with the little amount of post.
 
D&D Auto Detail said:
I feel the guys who aren't posting a ton of long C&B's are the ones doing real well. :noidea:
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Agreed.



MachNU said:
I feel like this is a win/lose situation. People say that some threads are too long and don't show the right stuff and yet others say they are to short and copy/paste from other boards. I guess I missed the memo that had an industry standard to what a post should look like. Then again, like Marc said, when he used his examples, they were the examples of the peoples threads that get the most traffic with the little amount of post.
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There's a fine balance, and your exact frustrations and confusion is the same thing we all feel.



In reality, there's a time for long and a time or short write-ups. Sometimes you hit a home run and no one notices. Other times you put out a decent thread and it goes crazy. Long threads are needed as "halo projects" to be able to show people examples of a thorough job you did and how it visually restored a vehicle's looks. Too many big threads and people get bored. Too many short ones and maybe people think less of you or think you're not able to make a write-up that would take someone 15 minutes to read.
 
the idea of posting on every forum is not bad or boring. There are a TON of forums out there, not everyone belongs to every one of them! So in order to hit your market, you have to post the same thing on multiple forums...plain and simple. Lets say i post up the 458 italia I am doing right now on autopia only...How many Ferrari enthusiasts who want their car done in LA area do you think are lurking on Autopia??? Probably next to none, or slim to none! On the other hand, by posting that 458 on a bunch of other sites as well, same writeup, one might be able to impress the right person with a different make and model. Heck, I posted up a porsche and landed a M3, Aston Martin DBS, and a 1974 bmw 2002 turbo off that C&B on a BMW forum and have a client for life now...



On another topic, since it comes up on some forums, if every forum started making people pay to post, there would be a LOT less C&B's going up and that would be the end of some detailing sections altogether on some forums! And another thing along those lines, just because you pay to post up your work to get more work (advertising as stated above), doesnt mean you really know what you are doing. i have corrected numerous cars from "sponsors" in the past and have been contacted multiple times from people asking why their car has "these greyish lines" (holograms) all over and what needs to be done to fix it, and can I fix it for them. People sometimes glob on to the "support the forum sponsors" idea a little too much; do your own homework, it goes beyond just one forum! If someone is well known on multiple forums for doing good work, that to me holds more credit and value than paying and posting on just one forum!



One thing that I dont like about the C&B's is the fact that your everyday joe shmo is posting up his otherwise "shotty" work in the same section as the pro's doing 95% corrections over 20+ hours. If someone has just 15 minutes to check out the C&B's there needs to be a separator category (like how it was here last year) so that person isnt browsing through work that isnt above and beyond! Looking at a thread with 60-80% correction done isnt all that fun. There are still a ton of scratches and hazy paint, yet the "Detailer" says its good enough, so people comment and say how good it looks, nice job, much better, etc...kinda like just being nice to be nice, not honest. sure its glossy, but that can be done with a one step machine polish, its nothing to "click and BRAG" about, definitely not pro! Yes I know there is volume detailing, and paint correction reconditioning, but there is a huge difference, and by grouping them together, its hard for the uneducated to decipher between the two..."why is jo shmo $150 bucks and Eric is $600 for the same thing?" - truth be told, its far from the same thing!



Maybe its just the sign of the times???? people are holding on to their money (so to speak) so there is less activity to the detailing sections since people dont want to spend the money on their car??? Could that be a factor over the last couple years? I do remember when C&B's had 500-1000+ views in two-three days, but now it takes a week to hit that mark UNLESS there are multiple replies...the more replies, the more views, which leads to more replies...is there a correlation there you think?
 
D&D Auto Detail said:
I feel the guys who aren't posting a ton of long C&B's are the ones doing real well. :noidea:
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I know I have stopped with the C&B's because quite frankly, I am busier than ever and the last thing I want to do is pump out another C&B at the end of a 10-12 hour day working, not including the hour drive and early wake up. That, and I hardly bring my camera anymore since it adds time to the detail, something that I am already short on at this point in my life...between a heavy work load, scheduling, admin stuff, article writing, write-ups, ordering, etc. along with trying to buy a house, setup another couple businesses, things are just crazy hectic. So unless I want to spend another hour per write up and not live a little bit, I dont do them! If I have an extra few hours in a day to myself, I'll do one...kinda like the GT3 and the Bentley ones I recently did. Funny thing though, those took me working on them over 4 days each...even though they are relatively short!
 
MarcHarris said:
In reality, there's a time for long and a time or short write-ups. Sometimes you hit a home run and no one notices. Other times you put out a decent thread and it goes crazy. Long threads are needed as "halo projects" to be able to show people examples of a thorough job you did and how it visually restored a vehicle's looks. Too many big threads and people get bored. Too many short ones and maybe people think less of you or think you're not able to make a write-up that would take someone 15 minutes to read.
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With circular logic, it still boils down to perception of people. The people with the bigger names will always get more traffic, which in turns elevates their name more. When this happens it takes traffic from the little guys threads, who like you said, may have hit a home run. Then eventually it falls off the page, going unnoticed. It will never change.



Hell, I will use you and myself as an example. If we both did a high end car to a close to same detailing package(granted I do not know your packages, but just say usual basic 95% correction package), then made threads, yours hands down would be much more traffic. Because your track record is amazing. You have much more information out there and your camera skills are much better than mine. People have seen more of your threads and have an idea to what they can expect in your thread. We both may have done the exact same quality of work, but mine might not be as flashy or crisp high quality pictures as yours. Meaning if they do go into mine, they will breeze right threw it.



I have said this many times before, I use an old D50, which is a start DSLR, with the start basic lens. I am not the most camera savvy. I do not know fancy angels or ways to pose cars after. I just know to get 4 corner shots, few interior and some sun shots. I try to stay straight to the point on what I did and what the outcome is. Which, it does affect the traffic my threads get and they tend to fall off onto the mass amount of pages, unless I respond to someones comment I might have missed.



Its the nature of the beast, those with less rapport, experience and years in the business, will always be held to a higher level.
 
Many interesting thoughts. I like threads like this that provoke posts that exceed the standard 10 words and actually offer thought provoking ideas.



I do agree that the C&Bs have become boring, but I also understand the various reasons why people post what they do. I resisted posting photos for a long time. I did not have the desire to stroke my ego or prove my competence. Then I had 3 different people ask me at different times within a week why I don't post my photos and each made a good point. The advertising value cannot be denied. It helps people understand what you are capable of. Clients who love their cars love to see their cars posted online and it allows them to easily share their experience and refer others.



For those who are simply working on their own cars, there is a lot of pride, not only in their car, but also the job they did. Creating a nice turn around on a car is rewarding. Those of us who have turned around scores or hundreds of cars have become numb to that feeling. Let them have their moment.



I now rarely seek out C&B threads because there is often little for me to learn from them. It doesn't matter to me what kind of car it is. The best write ups have some great details about the process. They can also become very boring, though. So a write up that focuses on one particularly difficult aspect can be a more educational without feeling like I'm reading a lecture.



As for responding to the comments; I have been guilty of that at times. In part because I did not post them for the accolades or approval. I think many times it has been because many of us are on multiple sites, so I don't feel the need to respond to each one on multiple sites. I also feel a certain camaraderie with many of the regular posters and I feel reciprocating comments on their posts implies the appreciation. And I agree that sometimes "Thanks" is really the only appropriate response to the all-too-common "Nice work" comment. (Sometimes driven by posting contests.) But point taken. I will be more conscientious about that.
 
I'm not a pro, but I have a lot of respect for those who detail for a living, and do it well. Proper detailing is very physically demanding, and the detailers who do quality work earn every penny they make.



And, I learn a lot from their efforts. It has helped me in the past, and since I was pretty absent from detailing my own stuff in 2011 (didn't get to polish once!), I am looking forward to learning about new techniques/products, etc.



That said, I have always felt that the spirit of this forum was to better the detailing world for all of us, through exchange of ideas, experiences, etc. I did contribute to the "People That Only Post Pictures on Autopia" back in 2010, and I still feel that way.



It does seem like more detailers are using this forum as an advertising tool only, and that is sad. Unfortunately, that seems to be the way society in general is headed. Though the Intenet is an important means of advertising one's craft, I have always felt that this forum was much more than that.



(Excuse me--I will get off my retired schoolteacher soapbox now.)



I don't know what can be done about it, if anything. I know that for me, that when I see posts from those who are "contributors to the art," I pay attention.



And, for David, I'll say WOOOOOOOOO! The "Nature Boy!" You made my day!
 
I'll add my $.02. I've been lurking the site and read a lot of the C&Bs and the older Before & After section. Since it got re-arranged, I think the purpose got lost a bit. Sure, most of the posts are still from the same guys, but it just doesn't seem to carry the same weight. Much of the reason I stop on Autopia is to show people what can be done. A lot of the Fermani, Scottwax, and Autolavish articles are the ones that drive the point home. I almost wonder if it should be submitted and reviewed so that the content is there before it really shines. That's what I loved about the Pro detail B&A section. It seemed to keep people a little more honest, and the articles seemed to shine (no pun intended) more.



I think the C&B articles are good reference material for people like myself. People that want to learn what works, where to begin, and some good schools of thought can skim over a C&B thread, maybe pick up a thing or two, and try it. Does it mean you'll replicate it 100%? Probably not. But, you can see ideas in higher concentration in here more than anywhere else on this site.



The nature of my post wasn't to offend anyone, just offer insight from a casual detailer who finds usefulness in the articles, but agrees with David's original post.
 
I agree with you overboost!



when you see a TON of products on the market, yet see the same top pros using something completely different, its probably not because they dont know about the OTC products!!! That is one thing I try to do on MOST of my articles....tell what product I use for what step. Having a Before, and After section only post is pointless, put that up on your own website, not a detailing forum! On autopia, it helps to guide people who want to do things their own (part of the reason a lot of people are on this site in general) if you have the products listed. A C&B with menzerna this, HD, that, Meguiars here, etc is going to help a rookie detailer weed through, and skip, the horrible products on the market and try what is better known for producing better results...because lets face it, its NOT all in the technique. I have used some really crappy products and wasted a ton of money on in the past, so I would rather tell someone NOT to order that, but rather this!
 
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