Hard paint, soft paint questions

[KaiYenS]

I alwasy hear hard paint/soft paint and don't really know anything about them. Could someone please tell me:



1) How do you know if a car has hard paint or soft paint (honda, porsche, bmw, bentley...etc.)?

2) How does that affect the way you do the detailing/polishing/waxing on it?

3) I assume hard paint is better/easier to detail than soft paint?

4) Hard paint vs soft paint pros & cons?



Any feedbacks relating to hard/soft paint will be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

 

[Way2SSlow]

1) How do you know if a car has hard paint or soft paint (honda, porsche, bmw, bentley...etc.)?

I usually pick a panel to test my process. Start with the least abrasive pad/product combo you can and see how it does on the defects present. If it blows through them, you're working with soft paint. The more abrasive you have to get to see results, the harder the paint.

2) How does that affect the way you do the detailing/polishing/waxing on it?

If working with soft paint, you can use a less abrasive pad/product combo, and you have to be more careful when wiping the car down, as on some freakishly soft paint, your mf can mar. If it's hard paint, you have to use more aggressive pad/product combo.

3) I assume hard paint is better/easier to detail than soft paint?

I'd rather polish soft paint, because the defects are removed easier. Hard paint can be frustrating because you have to keep attacking it to get the desired results. I'd rather my cars have harder clear though, since I am careful while washing.

4) Hard paint vs soft paint pros & cons?

Hard paint is good because it is HARDER to mar, but when it does get some marring, it's HARDER to polish it out.



Soft paint is the opposite. It's EASIER to polish (usually..sometimes you get freakishly soft and then even your MFs cause marring) but it's also EASIER to mar soft paint.

 

[pampos]

I usually pick a panel to test my process. Start with the least abrasive pad/product combo you can and see how it does on the defects present. If it blows through them, you're working with soft paint. The more abrasive you have to get to see results, the harder the paint.







If working with soft paint, you can use a less abrasive pad/product combo, and you have to be more careful when wiping the car down, as on some freakishly soft paint, your mf can mar. If it's hard paint, you have to use more aggressive pad/product combo.







I'd rather polish soft paint, because the defects are removed easier. Hard paint can be frustrating because you have to keep attacking it to get the desired results. I'd rather my cars have harder clear though, since I am careful while washing.







Hard paint is good because it is HARDER to mar, but when it does get some marring, it's HARDER to polish it out.



Soft paint is the opposite. It's EASIER to polish (usually..sometimes you get freakishly soft and then even your MFs cause marring) but it's also EASIER to mar soft paint.

Nice write ...:bigups

i agree with you especially on how easily can soft paint can get some marring.. i have a Honda :sadpace:

 

[nmxdaven]

If your careful with your car, hard paint is a God send. If not, then just be willing to take a few days to correct it all. Or pay the big bucks to get it done. (My personal choice) There are quite a few vetts out there that get taken care off and have very minimal marring as gm has a rock for a clear coat. However, oxygen molecules moving too fast would mar my fathers old 911.

 

[Neofate]

Good topic -- I have a 1994 Lexus LS 400 -- I just purchased it about 2 months ago. In extremely good condition.



Given this,.. the car had never been polished ever. The paint hadn't been waxed for nearly a decade. (Garage kept always though) -- So the paint was/is in excellent condition , with typical knicks from 14 yrs.



However, when I used an orange pad with XMT #3 -- With a UDM,.. It didn't just obliterate the swirls. I had to make MANY passes to get them down even a little bit.



Lexus = Toyota we know that.



So is this paint a very hard paint? If people deem it so,.. I might think about getting a more agressive polish.



Opinions?

 

[Accumulator]

Neofate- I've never worked on a Lexus (let alone of that vintage), but a friend of mine has a RX330 and IMO its paint isn't all that hard. I suspect it's just that +people like you who're doing the correction with sensibly mild products/machines find it a lot harder than they expect after reading detailing product ad-copy and spending time around here



I somehow doubt that the Toyota/Lexus paint is *nearly* as hard as that on my Audis; none of my other Japanese vehicles has had hard paint except for one 3rd-generation RX-7 (and that was known for hard but brittle paint that year). At least you didn't finish the job thinking "gee, I gotta get a rotary", and to me that's a clue.



KaiYenS- There are some general guidelines like Audis = hard, current BMW black = soft, but even then you can get surprised. I've heard of blue Audis (no idea at all why the basecoat is always blue :nixweiss ) that are incredibly soft.



And yeah, I like hard paint too. I'd rather have to work a little harder at correcting it than have to constantly stress about it getting marred up. But heaven forbit it gets *really* marred up. Taking serious marring out of the Audis and my '97 BMW is kinda tough even with the rotaries (at least if you care about the paint thickness).



When I hear about paint that's so soft it can't be polished via PC/Cyclo without micromarring, or can't be wiped with most MFs, I think "no thanks, I'd sell it".



But I gotta say that the middle-of-the-road paint on my Mazda MPV is nice; it doesn't mar all that easily yet it corrects with just a PC/Cyclo. Now it only its clear were a lot thicker....

 

[Neofate]

I would classify it as harder than your 'average' but not as bad as a GM of course.



No, I don't think I need a rotary, just a more agressive compound. This compound didn't take out all the swirls.. and the ones that existed that I did get out, took alot of heavy work to remove with the XMT 3 and orange pad.



With that in mind,.. with 230,000 miles and considering its a 1994 -- What agressive compound would your recommend to get out all the marrs/swirls? Its old, but in great condition. I , however, don't know how thick the paint is. Or the clearcoat. The measuring devices are thousands of dollars.. so its a guess... and the paint is thicker in some areas than others.



There are also a few very small places by the top of the doors (bottom of window) that are a millimeter in height where it seems the clear coat has flaked. Would it be prudent to get some clearcoat (like a pen from autozone) and just touch those spots to prevent future flaking/protection?



Oh, and not trying to take this topic, off topic -- But don't want to create yet another thread for these paint related questions.



Wish there was an inexpensive way to somehow measure the thickness of a used cars paint.

 

[Accumulator]

..No, I don't think I need a rotary, just a more agressive compound. This compound didn't take out all the swirls.. and the ones that existed that I did get out, took alot of heavy work to remove with the XMT 3 and orange pad...

IMO you need some 4" pads at least as badly as you need a more aggressive product.

.. with 230,000 miles and considering its a 1994 -- What agressive compound would your recommend to get out all the marrs/swirls? Its old, but in great condition. I , however, don't know how thick the paint is. Or the clearcoat. The measuring devices are thousands of dollars.. so its a guess... and the paint is thicker in some areas than others...

I finally got an ETG just to really *know* how much paint I'm taking off (but then it promptly broke ). IMO you should err on the side of caution and live with the remaining marring. That's what I do in most cases like this, and when I decided to really *correct* my M3 ('97, never aggressively polished that I know of, didn't look all *that* bad) I ended up taking off too much clear and I still didn't get it 100%.



Seriously...there are times when one oughta take off the "Autopia goggles" and view the paint in a real-world perspective: you have an older car with a zillion miles and nice original paint; that's really saying something! I'd try to preserve that original paint as long as possible, much more impressive IMO than improving the marring more at the risk of taking off too much clear and having to get it repainted. Your color hides minor flaws pretty well anyhow, so I'd take advantage of that.



Note that I don't mind going for perfection at all, but only when I know how much paint I have to work with (and I'm not really paranoid about this, just, IMO, sensible).

There are also a few very small places by the top of the doors (bottom of window) that are a millimeter in height where it seems the clear coat has flaked. Would it be prudent to get some clearcoat (like a pen from autozone) and just touch those spots to prevent future flaking/protection?

It's funny, but I've heard of that on other older Lexuses :think:



Yeah, *I* would get some good clear touchup paint and a tiny artist's brush (i.e., a size 10/0 or 20/0 - that's "ten-oh" or "twenty-oh") and touch it up so it doesn't spread. It won't look perfect but it'll look a lot better in a year or five than it would if you just left it alone.

 

[KaiYenS]

THANK YOU ALL for the GREAT INPUTS! They really help me understand now.



So what are the classic hard paint & soft paint vehicles? Is Cayenne considered hard or soft paint?



Accumulator, your comment about 4" pad reminds me of another question... is 4" pad more aggressive than the 6.5" if they're the same color...say a 4" white LC pad vs a 6.5" white LC pad??



Thank you all once again!

 

[Neofate]

IMO you need some 4" pads at least as badly as you need a more aggressive product.

Will do.. I will order an Orange and a white 4" -- 2 of each or so. What are your brand prefs?



Also, would you comment on your preference for a more agressive product for the car we are talking of? Something more agressive than XMT 3 -- but, also sensible enough for the age of the car. (I honestly think the paint is in condition of say a 5-7yr old car, rather than 14.. Simply because it never has been kept outside a day in its life (overnight). And was parked in a hospital parking deck for 13 of the 14 yrs. Now it resides in a garage, and in a deck outside my office. So very little sun exposure. What wear has occured is mostly from just air/aging -- and a few nicks that brought the clear coat down but didn't take the paint off.

I finally got an ETG just to really *know* how much paint I'm taking off (but then it promptly broke ). IMO you should err on the side of caution and live with the remaining marring. That's what I do in most cases like this, and when I decided to really *correct* my M3 ('97, never aggressively polished that I know of, didn't look all *that* bad) I ended up taking off too much clear and I still didn't get it 100%.

Duly noted sir. I guess I shouldn't even try to correct anymore for what, another 6 months? Or would it be ok to polish again now with something a touch more agressive? --Not like paint grows back over time heh.. so I guess anytime is going to do the same-

Seriously...there are times when one oughta take off the "Autopia goggles" and view the paint in a real-world perspective: you have an older car with a zillion miles and nice original paint; that's really saying something! I'd try to preserve that original paint as long as possible, much more impressive IMO than improving the marring more at the risk of taking off too much clear and having to get it repainted. Your color hides minor flaws pretty well anyhow, so I'd take advantage of that.

Yup, autopia has definitely given me a different perspective for car care and how it 'CAN' look. No way the car would have ever looked this good without discovering this forum. So I am thankful,.. although my Obession is a little overboard as is such with many 'autopians'. But better to have an obsession about something productive than non, imo

Note that I don't mind going for perfection at all, but only when I know how much paint I have to work with (and I'm not really paranoid about this, just, IMO, sensible).

With all of this in mind -- I have to ask about glazes, and products like Zaino (not polish, but topicals) and DWG's. That wouldn't take off paint, but ,again, add a layer of protection or non, that enhances the shine/luster properties.

It's funny, but I've heard of that on other older Lexuses :think:



Yeah, *I* would get some good clear touchup paint and a tiny artist's brush (i.e., a size 10/0 or 20/0 - that's "ten-oh" or "twenty-oh") and touch it up so it doesn't spread. It won't look perfect but it'll look a lot better in a year or five than it would if you just left it alone.

*good* clear touchup. Where would I find something considered *good*. I don't suspect autozone is the place , eh?





*Oh and to the OP who asked about the pad size.. yes the 4" is considered more agressive than say a 6.5" pad of the same color. The smaller the pad the more agressive it is. It is a physics thing.





Thanks

 

[Accumulator]

Will do.. I will order an Orange and a white 4" -- 2 of each or so. What are your brand prefs?

I'm probably not the best guy to ask about pads as I'm slowly using up all the old ones I already have on hand. For most 4" pad work I use Cyclo brand pads, but I've tried a few of the Sonus ones and they seem OK if you like the concave type of pads (I'm just used to the old flat ones).

.. would you comment on your preference for a more agressive product for the car we are talking of? Something more agressive than XMT 3 -- but, also sensible enough for the age of the car...

Gee, I'm not of much help today...I dunno from XMT 3 so I'm hard-pressed to suggest something relative to it :think: The most aggressive stuff I use by PC/4" is High-Temp Extreme Cut, if that's of any help. See if you can find somebody to compare/contrast it to the XMT 3 . 1Z Ultra/Extra or their Intensiv (SIC, I think) in another way to go and that Intensiv might be a good choice.

..I guess I shouldn't even try to correct anymore for what, another 6 months? Or would it be ok to polish again now with something a touch more agressive? --Not like paint grows back over time heh.. so I guess anytime is going to do the same- ..

I'm guessing that the light marring was already taken care of. I'd wait until it gets lightly marred up again (gee, aren't I the optimist ) and if you're gonna get more aggressive, do it *then*. That way you won't do an "extra" polishing/paint-thinning session. I still suspect that the marring that's left is something I'd live with on that car but then I'm the guy erring on the side of caution while others are wetsanding (and perhaps I'll be the guy saying "told ya so" twenty years from now...or perhaps not).

..I have to ask about glazes, and products like Zaino (not polish, but topicals) and DWG's. That wouldn't take off paint, but ,again, add a layer of protection or non, that enhances the shine/luster properties...

I haven't tried the DWG, but I want Bob to make lots of money so sure, give it a try some time Glazes...I've pretty much gotten away from them in most cases as the 1Z polishes I like leave a little something (something I consider glaze-like) behind. On the vehicles were I use sealants I polish to (very-)near perfection and then I don't want anything between the paint and my eyes except the sealant, so glazes don't fit into that regimen.



Zaino gives a somewhat unique look, on that *I* don't really care for. I have (IMO) my reasons for using Klasse SG and 4-Star UPP as my sealants, but if somebody else prefers Zaino, OK. But I'd *only* recommend a sealant on virtually flawless paint.

*good* clear touchup. Where would I find something considered *good*. I don't suspect autozone is the place , eh?

I'd go with something from my painter, or from Automotivetouchup dot com (or something like that) or Paintscratch.com (sorry, no link handy).

 

[Saintlysins]

Hey guys, great topic, lots of detail and advice I agree on, but I'm lost on one piece of advice: how the size of the pad contributes to the removal of existing swirl marks?

Isn’t it the pad 'type' over the 'size'? In my mind (screwed up and simple-minded as it may be), a larger surface area generates more heat in motion (surface area covered can not dissipate heat quickly, therefore adding to the chemical reaction of the compounds/polishes/etc), therefore become more aggressive. Wouldn’t a smaller surface area allow for faster heat dissipation, therefore less aggressive tendencies? (I know this is all contingent on how fast/slow the pad moves across the surface [and the compound/polish], but in general most people are moving along at the same rate of speed for a normal detail.)

I have always changed the product/polish or pad type, over the pad size to achieve the results I was looking to obtain.

Help me understand.

Thank you.

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator, your comment about 4" pad reminds me of another question... is 4" pad more aggressive than the 6.5" if they're the same color...say a 4" white LC pad vs a 6.5" white LC pad??

-AND-

..I'm lost on one piece of advice: how the size of the pad contributes to the removal of existing swirl marks?

Isn’t it the pad 'type' over the 'size'?..[examples of why large pads oughta be more aggressive follow] ...[so]..I have always changed the product/polish or pad type, over the pad size to achieve the results I was looking to obtain....

If we were discussing *rotary* polishers, then yeah, you'd be right. But the PC is different and I*assume* the UDM is in the same category only to a lesser degree.



*NOTE THAT I'VE NEVER USED A UDM AND AM BASING THE FOLLOWING ON EXPERIENCE WITH THE PC*



The smaller pads offer greater concentration of effort and, perhaps most importantly, less friction..hence less overloading to the point where the machine "just jiggles" instead of doing it's full random orbital movement; but when you lighten up the pressure the correction doesn't happen (in a timely manner).



The 4" pads are so much more effective/aggressive on the PC that in many cases I don't even think a (4") cutting pad is really necessary.



Note that when I killed the clear on my MPV I was using a fairly mild product that I've used countless times (3M PI-III RC 05933) and a polishing pad (Cyclo green). If a polishing pad is aggressive enough to take off too much paint, well...that's sufficiently aggressive IMO.



I've removed RIDS on our Audis with the PC/4" pads a few times, and if they're not too deep I can do it (given enough time ) with a 4" white pad (LC? maybe it's a Sonus ) even though I prefer the slightly more aggressive Cyclo green. Trying to do that with a 6-6.6" LC white pad would be an absolute excercise in frustration.



If the preceding is utterly off-base due to the UDM being significantly different from the PC, somebody please post something and I'll edit accordingly.

 

[Neofate]

Your theory is right,.. only difference in UDM is a 20% approx. more powerful motor. So it has a bit more torque at the same RPM, probably spins slightly faster at max setting. Principle is still the same.



With larger pads you can put say, 25lbs of pressure on the pad and you can notice it isn't rotating, but just vibrating. You slack the pressure off and it rotates at about 1 Revolution per second,.. keep slowly slacking off and it quickly picks up to hundreds and thousands of rpms. But you say the key here is you want pressure + the pad to acutally be rotating at as fast of a speed as you can acheive. This is where the motor/speed comes into play.



This is where the pad size comes into play.



It takes alot more effort to turn a 6.5 inch pad with pressure on it with X motor, than turning a 4inch area of pad with same pressure with X motor. So 4inch is more agressive because it is turning faster than the larger pad. You aren't covering as much area, but you are breaking down faster.



A happy compromise is sometimes 5" or 5.5 .. etc.



I believe I used 5.5" Orange pads when polishing my vehicle. The LLC pads I used for the wax application were 6.5. I think with a finishing polish and upwards the larger the pad, the better (6.5 about limit ) -- You don't need alot of pressure to break that stuff down, and you can cover more area faster.



When you are correcting with a heavier pad and grittier polish, use something smaller.. so you don't spend double time doing it.



I know I'm gonna go to a smaller pad on next polish. Maybe a 4.5 instead of 4 if they make it.



Accumulator let me ask you this.



The back plate on the UDM is 5 1/4" -- Is that the same as PC?



And would I need to order a smaller backing plate for the 4" pad? Or just put the pad on the back plate , just have a slightly larger uncovered area of the backing plate -- I don't see where that would really hurt anything, not like I'm gonna push through the pad and back back plate hit the paint.

 

[imported_Denzil]

And would I need to order a smaller backing plate for the 4" pad? Or just put the pad on the back plate , just have a slightly larger uncovered area of the backing plate -- I don't see where that would really hurt anything, not like I'm gonna push through the pad and back back plate hit the paint.

Not saying that you have to but I would strongly advise that you purchase the correct backing plate for the 4" pads. Accidents do happen.

 

[Saintlysins]

Great description of the rotation to pressure ratio “ACCUMULATOR� & “NEOFATE�, and now I understand why you’d prescribe the smaller pad. This really helped me realize that there’s two ways to tackle the same job. I’ll describe the way I was ‘groomed’ to use a PC (or any multi-action system), and you’ll see why I couldn’t understand the suggestion.

I really hope this does not come across as anything more than my opinion … and by no means a challenge or to say you procedure is wrong.

I have always applied enough pressure to allow the pad to rotate and vibrate simultaneously. When I want more cut I’ll use a more aggressive pad and aggressive cut compound to achieve desired results. Since I switched over from the 40 lb Black & Decker grinder converted to buffer in the early 80’s … (geeesh, am I old or what?) … I did this with the mindset that weight and pressure have been replaced with the science of ‘cut-and-polish technology’. So I’m programmed to never use pressure to do the work of the cutting and/or polishing. When I see new guys in the shop pressing hard enough to stop the rotation while looking for better results, I’ll tell them to swap pads and/or compound. My mindset is to let the products do the work, not muscle. Even if it becomes a 4 or 5 step rub to get the results desired. (Keeps muscle fatigue and strain down too … especially over the whole week.)

I been schooled that too much pressure also distorts the pad surface too much for its designed effectiveness. I would ‘assume’ (sorry, I hate that word too), that this is when the pressure from a distorted pad and the concentrated heat build-up will remove too much finish than necessary at one time and the cause for chewing right through clear-coats.

Now that you understand why I couldn’t comprehend the pad size prescription, I hope to make you laugh with this part … Since all size pads come in the same cut/finish, I always thought the smaller pads are for tighter areas or extreme compound curves and corners.

Again … not to discount anyone’s methods … this is only my opinion and the way I was trained.

“KAIYENS� you sure got your monies worth on this thread. Hope it’s not too confusing and you find what works best for you.

 

[Accumulator]

saintlysins- Ah, that does help explain where you're coming from on this (and you and I are, I suspect, of a, uhm, similar vintage ).



I started with the rotary, so I was always against using pressure too. When I got the Cyclo (mid-'80s) I learned that (with the more gentle tool) I needed to apply pressure, and I never had any problems from doing so.



When I got a PC I found that it simply didn't do much of anything without pressure, but that it was a mighty fine line between enough (do do correction) and too much (resulting in the "jiggling"). Once I switched to the 4" pads, problem solved!



I suspect that B & D grinder is more powerful than the Cyclo/PC and can indeed "let the pad and product do the work", which is a theory I've found unworkable in practice with everything except a rotary...well, everything except the PC with those 4" pads IMO it's a matter of what the machine can accomplish and a grinder is gonna have more oomph than a finish sander.

 

[Saintlysins]

I just re-read what I wrote and realize you could think I’m still using a converted grinder. I should have been more explicit and said:

“Since I switched over from the 40 lb Black & Decker grinder converted to buffer in the early 80’s to a PC ... blah, blah, blah�

I didn’t mean to imply I’m STILL using an old B & D conversion. I am still using PC’s and some weird Japanese brand Dual Action which has a little more umph than the PC’s.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Neofate]

Here is my take on it.



Saintly -- I think your method and practice is dead on. It is the safe practice and proper practice of using a random orbital, the pads, and the polish.



You don't apply too much pressure, if it stops rotating you change pads to allow the pad to cut more agressively at less pressure.



That is smart.



I think we are ultimately on the same page.



You see,.. regardless -- There is only so much pressure you can apply to a RO,.. PC/UDM type. Regardless of pad .. it will stop its rotation at a relatively minor amount of force.



We are suggesting a small pad for more cutting power with the pressure. This pad is acutally cutting more extreme, because it is allowing a bit more pressure due to smaller surface area. It is essentially giving the motor less to turn, thus a bit more power and able to handle a little more pressure.



I think your way is understood by us both,.. and is the best way to go about things if it can be accomplished in that manner. Keep working up from least agressive to most agressive till the job gets done.



However, if I find say, a 5.5" Orange with a fairly agresssive polish is taking 2-3 passes to get the defects out,.. I will move to a 4" pad, orange, with same polish. Which ultimately should cut it down to 1 pass. (Hopefully). Time saving effort, and no one wants to spend more time than is necessary. The old work smarter not harder.



In my opinion, I would rather use a little more ft-lb of pressure on the first pass (non-damaging of course) than to make 2-3, or 4 passes of light pressure.



That doesn't mean this is the only way,.. or the preferred way. But I think after you get used to the machine and experiment, you can safely jump directly to a more agressive approach without any inherent danger.



I wouldn't suggest and intense polish with an orange 4" pad on a Brand new Honda to a first timer.



This isn't about right and wrong either, just suggestions on what works. I, for one, do want any and all ideas on how to get the job done more effectively. Which results in better outcome and faster overall time to achieve such.

 

[Saintlysins]

Seems we three (Sins, Accu & Neo) agree we’re getting to the same results, just using different methods we are most familiar with. Seems “KAIYENS� got good info out of all of us on this thread!

Thanks!