Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
What Kevin said! (I think....) :thumbup:
Griot's DA and 6" MF pads??
- Thread starter rsunnafrank
- Start date
Michael Stoops
Meguiar's Specialist
Yes, I work for Meguiar's, but I can still be objective when it comes to this sort of thing.
At Barrett-Jackson West Palm Beach back in April I had to do my demos using a Porter Cable 7424XP since the G110v2 was still on national backorder and we were totally out. We were selling the XP at that event (which lead some to believe that we were replacing the v2 with the XP and/or we were going back to selling a rebranded Porter Cable like we did with the original G100 - neither of which is true, by the way (yes, the G100 was simply a rebranded 7424; no, we aren't going back to that practice)) just so that if someone got all excited following the demo they could purchase exactly what I used in the demo. And, yes, we sold a bunch - apparently my demos went quite well. :wink:
Anyway.........
While I have no doubt that the Porter Cable 7424 XP is a fine tool (I still have and love my original 7424) it simply did not have the power of the G110v2 and would bog down much easier. It left me longing for my v2 and I had to be careful not to apply too much pressure - I needed to demonstrate pad rotation while correcting defects. The demo car was a 2011 Roush Mustang, non metallic black, that I "prepped" for correction by applying an old school rubbing compound (competitors name to go unmentioned here!) by hand in order to sufficiently scour the paint. Let's face it, you can't do a good demo on defect removal if the paint looks perfect to start with! You can see how badly I scoured the paint in the left side of this image, and how well it came out with the Porter Cable 7424XP, W8207 Soft Buff 2.0 foam polishing pad (gadzooks, a 7" pad on DA?!?!?! that'll never work!!!!) and a little bit of Ultimate Compound (gasp!!!! not even M105???????).
That poor Roush 'Stang - I'd correct it, then tear it up again, then correct it again. Did this 4x a day for 3 days, then buffed out the whole thing before giving it back to the fine folks at Roush. And, yes, they knew about it all as their booth was right next to ours and they came by and watched me do everything. Full disclosure, blah blah blah.
So, obviously the 7424XP has some decent power behind it, but yes, you can bog it down much easier than a G110v2, without a doubt. On this car, even with this level of defect, and using 7" pads and a $10 consumer level product, the 7424XP was well up to the task. On much harder paint, posing a bigger challenge? Well...............
imported_Bunky
New member
Thanks Mike for the response. It is interesting the differences in views on the comparison. I am sure the factor of diminishing vs non-diminishing may also make a
difference.
In my limited use of M105/M205, it seemed to reduce the fickleness of the DA (finding the balance of speed, pressure, etc) that newbs seem to have and just let the polish do the work. As long as you did not buff it dry, it worked to some degree.
difference.
In my limited use of M105/M205, it seemed to reduce the fickleness of the DA (finding the balance of speed, pressure, etc) that newbs seem to have and just let the polish do the work. As long as you did not buff it dry, it worked to some degree.
Michael Stoops
Meguiar's Specialist
Jose is correct here, but so are you, gmck. Jose isn't saying that a larger pad on a DA provides more cut, just that two pads of different sizes will ultimately yield different outer edge speeds at similar tool speed settings. That's simply physics, no way around it. For example, a 7" pad running on a DA at speed 5 with a lot of downward pressure may only be rotating at a few dozen rpm, but it's outer edge speed is going to be higher than that of a 4" pad spinning, under load, at the same few dozen rpm. But where the higher outer edge speed on a rotary plays a key role in correcting ability (ie, larger pads yield higher speed and therefore more cut - all else being equal) the same situation on a DA does not, primarily because simple rotation is not how a DA provides cut.
So Jose is correct that a larger pad will give that higher outer edge speed, but you are spot on that on a DA the smaller pad provides more cut (again, all else being equal) due to it concentrating the energy of the tool in a smaller area.
imported_Kevin Brown
Jedi Master
And if you tilt the machine so that a majority of pressure is on a smaller catseye-shaped portion of the disc...
You get the benefit of a small footprint such as the small disc offers, with the edge speed of the large disc.
Or, you could feasibly donut hole a pad until you mimic the surface area of the smaller disc, yet polish as you normally would with a large disc.
You get the benefit of a small footprint such as the small disc offers, with the edge speed of the large disc.
Or, you could feasibly donut hole a pad until you mimic the surface area of the smaller disc, yet polish as you normally would with a large disc.
imported_User Name
New member
Even though I only understand about 50% of what is written, this is another one of those really informative threads.
To Mr. Stoops... can the same be said between G110 V1 and V2 as you said with PCXP?
I have a V1 and it has always been sufficient for my hack needs but I feel like DA power is kind of like horsepower, you always want much more than you need!
To Mr. Stoops... can the same be said between G110 V1 and V2 as you said with PCXP?
I have a V1 and it has always been sufficient for my hack needs but I feel like DA power is kind of like horsepower, you always want much more than you need!
Michael Stoops
Meguiar's Specialist
Yes, the v2 has a definite power jump over the v1, equal to that of it's jump over the XP.
But you know, if you've got a tool that's working great for you and you're just dealing with your own vehicles, I don't see a big reason to run out and buy another tool just for the sake of spending money. I mean, if you really are taking care of your own cars (and just your own cars) they should look pretty darn good all the time.
That said, there's nothing wrong with having a backup tool, or one DA dedicated to 4" pads and another for larger pads. Or having a DA and a rotary. Or two DAs, a rotary, and a Flex 3401.
Why I have 5 DAs, a small Metabo, 3 rotaries and a Dynabrade attachment is beyond me since I don't detail for a living
ut:
But you know, if you've got a tool that's working great for you and you're just dealing with your own vehicles, I don't see a big reason to run out and buy another tool just for the sake of spending money. I mean, if you really are taking care of your own cars (and just your own cars) they should look pretty darn good all the time.
That said, there's nothing wrong with having a backup tool, or one DA dedicated to 4" pads and another for larger pads. Or having a DA and a rotary. Or two DAs, a rotary, and a Flex 3401.
Why I have 5 DAs, a small Metabo, 3 rotaries and a Dynabrade attachment is beyond me since I don't detail for a living
ut:imported_User Name
New member
Yes, the v2 has a definite power jump over the v1, equal to that of it's jump over the XP.
But you know, if you've got a tool that's working great for you and you're just dealing with your own vehicles, I don't see a big reason to run out and buy another tool just for the sake of spending money. I mean, if you really are taking care of your own cars (and just your own cars) they should look pretty darn good all the time.
That said, there's nothing wrong with having a backup tool, or one DA dedicated to 4" pads and another for larger pads. Or having a DA and a rotary. Or two DAs, a rotary, and a Flex 3401.
Why I have 5 DAs, a small Metabo, 3 rotaries and a Dynabrade attachment is beyond me since I don't detail for a living
I was actually thinking about a backup two weeks ago while I was detailing my car. I though, "what would I do if my V1 suddenly died on me". I mean, no huge deal when it isn't a client car, but it would still suck. Maybe that is the pitch I throw at wifey!!! LOL
imported_Bunky
New member
I own one of the original UDM 1.0 (called by some as the original David B Ultimate Disappointing Machine). Mine still works but I am also staying active since I do want to get a new unit just in case it dies at the wrong time.
My buying criteria:
1. Cost - not a significant factor (that is, XP, Griots, V2 are close enough)
2. Ease of use - I do want one that does not leave me with the shakes, etc. My UDM still can do it even without using the handle. I do not like the Griots with the side handle (too much vibration)
3. reliability - pretty high. I want something with a reputation but warranty is key if not considered the best. If it dies an early life, I do not want to pay shipping to get it fixed. The ability to install brushes is a plus.
4. Power - pretty high. I have not used the v2 or XP yet so do not know how they work against the Griots. I would like to try all three some time (maybe at some detailing event)
I have been leaning to the Griots for power and warranty.
imported_Jose
New member
This seems to be the general consensus when using a DA and I don't have enough experience to argue against the consensus. That said I somewhat understand how machines work and from this limited knowledge I can derive some thought out conclusions in more science oriented terms.
By "more aggressive" I surmise that people are talking about more "cut", which implies more work over a period of time. Work is a science term (force x distance). Resistance is the opposite force, and it impedes work. To apply more work in rotational terms you need more torque.
In electrical motors torque is the amount of force (resistance) that will stop the motor. You can figure how much torque an electrical motor has by converting watts to horsepower (1 watt = 1/746 horsepower), and then use horsepower against a constant to calculate torque (HP x 5252 / RPM).
Because DA and rotary machines are rated in Amps, which is a measure of efficiency (like how cool a motor stays under load), we have to convert Amps to Watts and then to Horsepower to get Torque (Watts = Amps x Volts).
Bottom line is that an 8-amp machine (the GG DA) is going to do almost twice as much work as another DA that has only 4.5 Amps and half of the work than a rotary that has 15-Amps
. But, and this is the big one, these number assume using the max speed setting and maximum pressure to the point of motor stall, and that is not the real world. And yes larger pad size creates more resistance and therefore to do the same "work" as a smaller pad you need more torque. But again, in the case of the DA machines this would only apply under maximum load (setting and pressure). I still believe though that the difference between a 5.5-inch pad and a 6-inch one doing real life work would be negligible on a GG DA at the higher speed setting in terms of "cut" - (work over time and distance) and the added area of the larger pad would compensate for the distance part of the equation.
Best,
Jose
imported_Bunky
New member
Bottom line is that an 8-amp machine (the GG DA) is going to do almost twice as much work as another DA that has only 4.5 Amps and half of the work than a rotary that has 15-Amps
All things being equal it is very true but they are not equal. They are three different designs and there are other factors (reliability, durability, warranty, etc) that may make something "less" better. The buyer needs to decide.