GG6/Menzerna Best Practices...machine speed/pressure

BudgetPlan1

BudgetPlan1

Active member
OK, really liking the Menzerna stuff lately, have read extensive post re: Menzerna best practices when using with Flex 3401 and not sure if same `strategy` applies to using a DA like GG6.

Specifically gonna be prepping new car for coating this weekend, likely most aggressive polish needed will be Menz SF-3500 (PO106FA), maybe get away with just Menz SF-3800 (PO85RD).

I`ve used it on a few cars before, generally at GG6 Speed 4.5 - 5 (5500-6000 OPM), starting with moderate pressure for first two passes, followed by lessening pressure until it becomes translucent. Curious though, when trying to eek out that last little bit of gloss/clarity with the 3800, what speed/pressure do experienced folks find produces the best results.

For applicable pads I`ve a full `set` (8 pads) each of:
- LC Flat White
- LC Flat Black
- LC Flat Blue
- LC HydroTech Tangerine
- LC HydroTech Crimson

Test spots will be done but initial thoughts are SF3500 on LC Flat White followed by SF3800 on Crimson HydroTech; will have to see but maybe get away with 3800 on LC White followed by 3800 on LC HT Crimson. Car is new so upon examination last week, paint in very good shape as dealer didn`t do the usual `prep` at my request. A few light spots/stains from sitting outside on lot but testing shows those come out by hand with 3500 on LC white, rubbing for only a few seconds....so very minor.

What impact does DA speed have on polish use, especially DAT polishes like Menzerna. Does initial higher DA speed break down the polish quicker and then successive lower speed passes `work` the polishes more without building up as much heat? Generally same thing with pressure?

Guess I just don`t quite understand the role machine speed and pressure plays in the use/results of using DAT polishes (SMAT too for that matter)

Any help/thoughts/theories are appreciated...not completely in the `what should I do in this particular case` but also seeking overall understanding of machine speed/pressure impact on results.

Thanks
 
I`m not usually a fan of answering questions with a link to another post, but Todd@RUPES couldn`t have explained it better than he did in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/polis...acheive-flawless-finish-m205-da-polisher.html

He`s primarily talking about Meguiars M205, but he touches on a lot of your questions regarding speed and pressure.

If you really want to squeeze the most amount of gloss possible, you should consider picking up a rotary polisher and some jeweling pads.
 
Vega@Autopia said:
I`m not usually a fan of answering questions with a link to another post, but Todd@RUPES couldn`t have explained it better than he did in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/polis...acheive-flawless-finish-m205-da-polisher.html

He`s primarily talking about Meguiars M205, but he touches on a lot of your questions regarding speed and pressure.

If you really want to squeeze the most amount of gloss possible, you should consider picking up a rotary polisher and some jeweling pads.
Click to expand...

Yep, I read through that post as well. I think the pertinent info to try would be:

Even when using PO85rd, I will use many of the same techniques, except using a longer working time. I will clean the pad half way through the cycle, reduce speed, etc, and feel I can easily achieve a rotary quality `jewelled look`.
Click to expand...

I think that sometimes, when going for that list iota of gloss, even test spots can be hard to discern minute improvements...and yet we still try.

Also just generally curious about overall impact of varying speed while doing a section regardless of specific pad/polish (although I`m sure product plays a significant role as well). What do the initial passes at a higher speed do as opposed to later passes at lower speed...???

PO85RD is such a fine polish that perhaps `real` improvements over P106FA w/ a White Polishing Pad used with a DA like the GG6 are insignificant in reality, perhaps un-noticeable to all but the most discerning eye. And even then it`s quite subjective.

OCD, anyone?
 
Vega@Autopia said:
...

If you really want to squeeze the most amount of gloss possible, you should consider picking up a rotary polisher and some jeweling pads.
Click to expand...

Haven`t tried jeweling before, so I`m curious: is the rotary the only way to do it? Or is it possible to use like LC Gold pads on a DA?
 
BudgetPlan1 said:
There`s an article/post somewhere on autogeek forums where Mike Phillips addresses this issue I believe. Kinda `product specific` though.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. I had forgotten about that thread (but not the product).. I forget so much, it`s why I started using Evernote. Now I put many of the tips/tricks and procedures, etc, onto my notebooks. :)

Now, If i can just remember to check there!
 
BudgetPlan1 said:
Also just generally curious about overall impact of varying speed while doing a section regardless of specific pad/polish (although I`m sure product plays a significant role as well). What do the initial passes at a higher speed do as opposed to later passes at lower speed...???
Click to expand...

The theory behind the technique of gradually slowing the pad speed is based on the fact that a faster pad = more cut. This can be proven if you attempt to remove swirl marks on speed setting 1 (very low speed). You`ll notice that almost none of the swirl marks have been removed. Keeping all variables consistent, if you perform the same test on speed setting 6 (very high speed), you`ll notice much more of the swirl marks have been removed. The faster the speed the more aggressive your combination is.

The entire process of polishing is "refining" the scratches you see in the paint. Just like wet sanding, you`re making the scratches less and less visible by gradually lowering the level of aggression you are using. Once the abrasives in a finishing polish are broken down, using them at a slower speed should in turn be less aggressive and leave a shinier surface.

This is the theory behind the technique anyways. Of course every paint system is different and results can vary. It`s up to the detailer to determine the best possible technical process needed to get the paint to as close as perfect as possible.

BudgetPlan1 said:
PO85RD is such a fine polish that perhaps `real` improvements over P106FA w/ a White Polishing Pad used with a DA like the GG6 are insignificant in reality, perhaps un-noticeable to all but the most discerning eye. And even then it`s quite subjective.

OCD, anyone?
Click to expand...

Knowing that every paint system is different and reacts differently....one person might think it makes no difference at all while someone else with a completely different paint system can notice a big difference.

One thing we have to keep in mind when testing products on a single car or paint system, is that it`s possible the results will vary big time when the same tests are performed on different paint systems.

While the finish on 3500 vs 3800 can seem very similar, in my testing 3500 does have noticeably more cut. So on a harder finish or a finish with deeper imperfections, the finish would be much more visible.
 
Vega@Autopia said:
The theory behind the technique of gradually slowing the pad speed is based on the fact that a faster pad = more cut. This can be proven if you attempt to remove swirl marks on speed setting 1 (very low speed). You`ll notice that almost none of the swirl marks have been removed. Keeping all variables consistent, if you perform the same test on speed setting 6 (very high speed), you`ll notice much more of the swirl marks have been removed. The faster the speed the more aggressive your combination is.

The entire process of polishing is "refining" the scratches you see in the paint. Just like wet sanding, you`re making the scratches less and less visible by gradually lowering the level of aggression you are using. Once the abrasives in a finishing polish are broken down, using them at a slower speed should in turn be less aggressive and leave a shinier surface.

This is the theory behind the technique anyways. Of course every paint system is different and results can vary. It`s up to the detailer to determine the best possible technical process needed to get the paint to as close as perfect as possible.
Click to expand...

Excellent...much appreciated.

Vega@Autopia said:
Knowing that every paint system is different and reacts differently....one person might think it makes no difference at all while someone else with a completely different paint system can notice a big difference.

One thing we have to keep in mind when testing products on a single car or paint system, is that it`s possible the results will vary big time when the same tests are performed on different paint systems.

While the finish on 3500 vs 3800 can seem very similar, in my testing 3500 does have noticeably more cut. So on a harder finish or a finish with deeper imperfections, the finish would be much more visible.
Click to expand...

Very familiar with this concept; among our cars are a black 2004 Corvette...very tough clearcoat, and a 2016 black Subaru...very soft paint. Opposite ends of the spectrum for sure.

Having googled many forums/posts regarding PO85RD and DA`s today I have come to the conclusion that...there is no definitive answer. Have seen many who say start at 4-5 and then crank that thing up to 6 to get highest gloss, others say start high and drop to 4 and still others say 4-5 with consistent, `machine only` pressure.

Like you say, different paint systems, different results, different techniques. I think my quandary with the speed issue neglected to comprehend `less aggressive = more refined` concept. Thanks for pointing that out. Probably gonna start with Todd/Rupes suggestions and go from there.
 
Vega@Autopia said:
I`m not usually a fan of answering questions with a link to another post, but Todd@RUPES couldn`t have explained it better than he did in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/polis...acheive-flawless-finish-m205-da-polisher.html

He`s primarily talking about Meguiars M205, but he touches on a lot of your questions regarding speed and pressure.

If you really want to squeeze the most amount of gloss possible, you should consider picking up a rotary polisher and some jeweling pads.
Click to expand...


Thanks for posting this. I hadn`t seen it yet!
 
WaxAddict said:
LOVE Menzerna polishes, HATE that they can`t decide what to call them.
Click to expand...

Yes !!!!
It was much simpler even 10+ years ago !

Probably some bigwig`s kid got the job and that is what we have now...

They were never really good at putting anything on the bottle except drawings anyway...

But it did make me do more research because of that and the most research was on the family vehicles before any of this went on Client vehicles...

What I can say with a lot of years behind the rotary with their products is that they are very consistent, predictable, and never have a bad day...

There is a learning curve but it is quite easy to get and they will always really rock German car paint...

I liked it when I learned that they went way out there before anyone else and started manufacturing their own ingredients in-house instead of buying them from suppliers, so that they could get predictable results all across the product line...

These guys and gals are really smart...
Dan F
 
Vega@Autopia said:
The theory behind the technique of gradually slowing the pad speed is based on the fact that a faster pad = more cut. This can be proven if you attempt to remove swirl marks on speed setting 1 (very low speed). You`ll notice that almost none of the swirl marks have been removed. Keeping all variables consistent, if you perform the same test on speed setting 6 (very high speed), you`ll notice much more of the swirl marks have been removed. The faster the speed the more aggressive your combination is.

The entire process of polishing is "refining" the scratches you see in the paint. Just like wet sanding, you`re making the scratches less and less visible by gradually lowering the level of aggression you are using. Once the abrasives in a finishing polish are broken down, using them at a slower speed should in turn be less aggressive and leave a shinier surface.

This is the theory behind the technique anyways. Of course every paint system is different and results can vary. It`s up to the detailer to determine the best possible technical process needed to get the paint to as close as perfect as possible.



Knowing that every paint system is different and reacts differently....one person might think it makes no difference at all while someone else with a completely different paint system can notice a big difference.

One thing we have to keep in mind when testing products on a single car or paint system, is that it`s possible the results will vary big time when the same tests are performed on different paint systems.

While the finish on 3500 vs 3800 can seem very similar, in my testing 3500 does have noticeably more cut. So on a harder finish or a finish with deeper imperfections, the finish would be much more visible.
Click to expand...

Menzerna 3500 has a Cut = 3 and Gloss = 10
Menzerna 3800 has a Cut = 2 and Gloss = 10

Dan F
 
JustJesus said:
Haven`t tried jeweling before, so I`m curious: is the rotary the only way to do it? Or is it possible to use like LC Gold pads on a DA?
Click to expand...

I do it with my Cyclos, and less often, with the GG6. Jeweling/burnishing is merely additonal polishing after the defects have been removed. I don`t use the super-soft pads either.

Just FWIW, unless you`ll be able to keep the finish marring-free pretty much indefinitely, I sure wouldn`t bother burnishing it. Eh, that`s just me and I *do* burnish the S8 (but then I don`t need to correct it either).

I don`t know from Menzerna PO85rd, sold mine unopened to a fellow Autopian, but AFAIK the trick is to work it forever, until after it becomes "like salad oil" but not so long that it flashes. The whole "how to use it properly" is why I got rid of mine.

How you burnish (properly) is gonna vary with the products/machines used, so I`d be cautious about generalizing too much. E.g., what I do with 1Z High Gloss is different from what I do with HD Polish. And just FWIW, I can *NEVER* get the same finish with M205 that I get with those two, no matter how I do it. I can get it *AWFULLY* nice, but not quite *as nice*. People can say "user error!" but if something`s not Accumulator-proof after countless tries I just switch to something that is.
 
Accumulator said:
I do it with my Cyclos, and less often, with the GG6. Jeweling/burnishing is merely additonal polishing after the defects have been removed. I don`t use the super-soft pads either.

Just FWIW, unless you`ll be able to keep the finish marring-free pretty much indefinitely, I sure wouldn`t bother burnishing it. Eh, that`s just me and I *do* burnish the S8 (but then I don`t need to correct it either).

I don`t know from Menzerna PO85rd, sold mine unopened to a fellow Autopian, but AFAIK the trick is to work it forever, until after it becomes "like salad oil" but not so long that it flashes. The whole "how to use it properly" is why I got rid of mine.
...
Click to expand...

Thank you, Accumulator. I`ll likely NOT do much jeweling/burnishing for the same reason. But if I happen to do a show car some day :P

hehe...that was me. I bought the PO85rd. I *think* it was at the same time I picked up one of your M105s. I`ve used the PO85rd on a hood. Don`t recall how I worked it, but I was satisfied with it.
 
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