Getting rid of orange peel

David Fermani said:
Factory applied clearcoat is typically 1.5 mils thick. In a recent article Bud Abraham wrote in Professional Carwashing & Detailing, he explained that reducing the factory clear more than 1/2 mil (~12 microns) will disturb the CC's UV protection and could prematurely fade your base coat. There's alot of variable to determine how long it *could* take before any ill effects are visable such as base color and sun exposure.



Defelsko (makers of paint thickness guages) states on their website:

Because of the potential for removing the majority of the UV blockers, most auto manufacturers recommend that a maximum of 0.3 mils (8 microns) clear coat be removed as prevention from UV damage to underlying paint layers.



MakitaNinja Did you reduce the OP or completely remove it? The bad thing on Vettes is that even if you flatten one out or even do a really flat repaint, the faberglass will still be wavy. Even if you block the heck out of it, the fiberglass will eventually shrink/expand creating waves.
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Quote one skilled person in the industry, you can find another that states otherwise, personal experience is my most valuable asset.



For the most part I try to remove no more than .6 mills (that's not rock solid go to figure but a good average for a wide array of paints) and for the most part it is not reduced by 100%, the difference however is definitely worth paying for.



Vettes can be tricky, the one I spoke of is after-market EVERYTHING so your typical run in's wouldn't apply to this particular car.
 
David Fermani said:
Factory applied clearcoat is typically 1.5 mils thick. In a recent article Bud Abraham wrote in Professional Carwashing & Detailing, he explained that reducing the factory clear more than 1/2 mil (~12 microns) will disturb the CC's UV protection and could prematurely fade your base coat. There's alot of variable to determine how long it *could* take before any ill effects are visable such as base color and sun exposure.



Defelsko (makers of paint thickness guages) states on their website:

Because of the potential for removing the majority of the UV blockers, most auto manufacturers recommend that a maximum of 0.3 mils (8 microns) clear coat be removed as prevention from UV damage to underlying paint layers.



MakitaNinja Did you reduce the OP or completely remove it? The bad thing on Vettes is that even if you flatten one out or even do a really flat repaint, the faberglass will still be wavy. Even if you block the heck out of it, the fiberglass will eventually shrink/expand creating waves.
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Great information, David, thank you.
 
Orange peel is just that, orange peel and will not have any effect on the durability. Just a poor clearcoat application due to mfg environments.



If that was the case, all high end cars would also have orange peel.



It's just the way they shoot the clearcoat on in todays mfg enviornment with waterborne paints in water curtain spray tunnels to keep the VOC down. Then it's cured thermaly and your new finish has the orange peel. Mass produced cars have more of it. Even Z06 base/solid colors are rampid with it.



Look at any German car, high-end Japanese car, Italian Car etc. No orange peel. There may a a few that slip through, but normally if that is so, it's re-shot when it arrives in port before a dealer takes it. Seen this happen on a few Porsche 997's arriving at a dealer with one panel having orange peel. Re-shot while at port. This is also the area they apply the window sticker listing all the info on the car.



You'd have to wetsand it down to level it. I use papers that go down to 12K in grit for final work so there is less buffing, just bringing up the gloss w/o too much cutting since I let the paper do that.



If you've never wetsanded, let a bodyshop look at the finish to see if it can be done w/o too much clear being removed. Otherwise, learn to live with it.



Never try to level orange pel via polisher, you'll go into clear coat failure without a doubt!



Deanski
 
Deanski said:
Orange peel is just that, orange peel and will not have any effect on the durability. Just a poor clearcoat application due to mfg environments.



If that was the case, all high end cars would also have orange peel.



It's just the way they shoot the clearcoat on in todays mfg enviornment with waterborne paints in water curtain spray tunnels to keep the VOC down. Then it's cured thermaly and your new finish has the orange peel. Mass produced cars have more of it. Even Z06 base/solid colors are rampid with it.



Look at any German car, high-end Japanese car, Italian Car etc. No orange peel. There may a a few that slip through, but normally if that is so, it's re-shot when it arrives in port before a dealer takes it. Seen this happen on a few Porsche 997's arriving at a dealer with one panel having orange peel. Re-shot while at port. This is also the area they apply the window sticker listing all the info on the car.



You'd have to wetsand it down to level it. I use papers that go down to 12K in grit for final work so there is less buffing, just bringing up the gloss w/o too much cutting since I let the paper do that.



If you've never wetsanded, let a bodyshop look at the finish to see if it can be done w/o too much clear being removed. Otherwise, learn to live with it.



Never try to level orange pel via polisher, you'll go into clear coat failure without a doubt!



Deanski
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I don't want to create any waves but my s430 has horrible peel. I have a handful of Ferrari's and other Italian sleds that are not as bad as say the new z06's but orange peel is definitely up front and apparent. My neighbors new A5 is as bad as many GM finishes. I don't work on too many Japanese cars, but I would think they are the same.



The only factory sprayed cars I see without at least a very minimal level of orange peel are Bentleys and RR, Bentleys are straight as a board from what I have seen, hell even the Veyron a friend of mine worked on last fall had minor orange peel affect.
 
I too had a S430. Not exactly perfect, but a far cry from GM paint finishes.



Not too many Ferrari or other exotics with OP, but never say never with more and more shops going to waterborne paints. Less time for it to flow and level since you can't use solvents anymore to facilitate this.



Just a matter of time before we see more of this.



Deanski
 
Deanski,



Keep in mind, every Ferrari I currently work on is post 1999, this could have something to do with it, but Ferrari paint is crap anyhow. That's cool we drive the same car, have you done anything to the engine or any other mod's? Dyno it?
 
That darn OP hey

If the peel is in the clear, then it may be sanded out and the paint recleared but if it's in the base, nothing you can do about it



I had a very strange thing happen to my garage queen which had moderate to medium orange peel from factory (PPG 2k mica and flakes)



The last time I machine polished it, after I did Menzerna IP and 106, I got the Jeffs Werkstatt Prime Acrylic out and applied it with a rotary at 900 to 1200 rpm

Luckily I worked it just enough so I got a hologram free finish



The strangest thing was - the acrylic polymer coating of prime covered over the peel somehow

And once I sealed it and have kept sealant on, it has yet to come out

It was freaky and I have never achieved it since



It only worked on the bonnet and front guards.



Strangely, when I am using Glare on a severely cut back paintjob that requires me to fill, sometimes using the whole system ends up making the peel thin out a little. It's only being filled so may come back out but it has yet too



This worked on my fathers purple MG F race car from Japan with pommy paint on it

One half where I applied it went almost clear, the other half has moderate peel.

I can't show it to you cause digital cameras hide orange peel
 
[quote name='MakitaNinja']Deanski,



Keep in mind, every Ferrari I currently work on is post 1999, this could have something to do with it, but Ferrari paint is crap anyhow. That's cool we drive the same car, have you done anything to the engine or any other mod's? Dyno it?[/QUOTE



My 997 C2S I'm looking at the new FBL "Power Kits" which is the X51 airbox, chip ECU, new full exhaust. Also want the Bilstein PSS9 Damptonics so I can keep PASM.



Haven't dyno'd the car yet, but when I do go with FarnbacherLoles Power Kit, we are going to dyno it.



Yes some Ferrari paint is not as good as it used to when they did laquer. New models seem to be much better.



Anyway, OP is one big pain for todays paint.



Regards,

Deanski
 
I was looking at a Hyundai Sonota the other day, and it had perfect paint. I looked it over and it had no op at all. There must have been a mistake made at the factory.
 
My 07 Mazda 6 has horrible orange peel. Not much I can do about it. I just accept it being as I got it for about 17k.



Accumulator said:
Seems like all our b/c cars have OP, and our most expensive ones (Audi A8 & S8) are pretty bad, despite the factory's fancy robotic paintguns. For that matter the RX-7 has awful OP too, and it's single-stage.
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Which RX-7 are you referring to? :) I'm sure that at least right under 1/2 of the 2nd Gen's (86-92) had B/C, and I think it's more like 90%.
 
Your going to have orange peel on any mass produced car. The cost a time involved in removing it from the thousands of cars a manufacturer produces each year would be astronomical. I far as I know there is no way to avoid orange peel when painting a car and the only way to remove it is to wet sand.
 
slckrsx said:
Your going to have orange peel on any mass produced car. The cost a time involved in removing it from the thousands of cars a manufacturer produces each year would be astronomical. I far as I know there is no way to avoid orange peel when painting a car and the only way to remove it is to wet sand.
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How would one know if the OP is in the basecoat or the clearcoat?
 
I don't know of 1 vehicle produced (via mass production or hand built) that doesn't have OP. It really doesn't matter if it's done in single stage or CC and even before the heavy VOC laws. That even includes Lambos & Bentleys that are hand painted & actually sanded/buffed at the factory. Even though they get the "piano finish" treatment, they still aren't perfectly flat like some would think/hope. I also know a factory authorized Ferrari/Maserati repair shop (1 of 6 in the US) that leaves OP in their finishes to match the factory spec. (Ferraris/Maseratis are all painted robotically (not really "mass produced") with water borne ceramic clear). Even if a vehicle is painted by the most talented painter after the best prep/body work, it's still going to have some OP. If someone wants a totally flat finish with *zero* OP, you'll need to spray more than the normal 2 coats of clear, because you'll be doing some serious sanding to get it perfect.



Anyone that thinks their vehicle is flat, try block sanding a few passes with some 2000 sandpaper and you'll see the high and lows left behind. Also, I dare you to take a meter reading before and after to see many mils/microns you're knocking down to get that perfectly flat finish. Then, see if all that work and looks are worth *possibly* destroying the finish.
 
Deanski said:
Look at any German car, high-end Japanese car, Italian Car etc. No orange peel. There may a a few that slip through, but normally if that is so, it's re-shot when it arrives in port before a dealer takes it. Seen this happen on a few Porsche 997's arriving at a dealer with one panel having orange peel. Re-shot while at port. This is also the area they apply the window sticker listing all the info on the car.
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I'm going to have to disagree when you say all german cars, bringing in the new BMWs as an example. In fact, what brought me into this thread is the fact that I looked over a montego blue '07 335i with horrendous orange peel. This poor guy deserves better. I've seen it on all of the new models, but even my old 89er E34 isn't this bad.



Terrible, BMW should be ashamed!

Otherwise this blue E92 is absolutely breathtaking.

(lowered, black BBS wheels, shadowlined, manual - even the interior is a unique, saddle brown/black dakota color)

Speaking of BMW paint, is this color of blue paint clearcoated and fairly hard? Anybody have experience?



I will agree that Porsche has it right, I detailed a black Carrera 4s this weekend, boy was it swirled to hell, but it cleaned up incredibly well.

Soft paint, bled all over my pads too...

B4

http://a785.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/42/l_5b07d6b54356960c726b6485339f6150.jpg



After, but bad pic - I'll get more when I meet up with my client later this week.

http://a949.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/57/l_70a1a4a6dadaebf95d712fe6486100e4.jpg



http://a737.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/60/l_921ca6f37bc614f496791a828b3b7fe0.jpg



Here you can see some more black in the corners, camera didn't sweitch itself to night mode...

http://a760.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/12/l_661aafa4edf61b0c34467de8be066f67.jpg

http://a471.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/59/l_68da0284fa64747674097b56a8f2dec6.jpg
 
My5ABaby said:
Which RX-7 are you referring to? :) I'm sure that at least right under 1/2 of the 2nd Gen's (86-92) had B/C, and I think it's more like 90%.
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Mine's a first-gen, a '84 GSL-SE in "tender blue" (like my '85 Jag, it's one of the last ss metallics, I'm a sucker for that stuff :D ). My family had another of this vintage that was purchsed new (also ss metallic), and the ss paint is *SUPER* fragile; you virtually never see one with nice original paint these days. We were discussing this at a recent Jag Club meet (lots of 1st-gen RX-7 fans in the club), and we all agree about how the paint usually oxidized/etc. to the point of oh-yuck in a matter of a few years, even when it was kept waxed/etc. Mine's a bit of a :wow: because of its originality/condition and I plan to keep it that way (yeah it has some marring but I won't thin that paint), ditto for my Jag.
 
SuperBee364 said:
Accumulator, when are we gonna see pics of your stable??? You have me so curious...
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This comes up from time to time...and has lead to a few, uhm, unfortunately contentious exchanges. I haven't posted this for a while, but some have seen it before:



I'm digital-imaging-ignorant and, more significantly, I have PERSEC-related issues when it comes to posting pics of my stuff on the internet (yep, I'm cyber-paranoid, no question about it; some would say I'm simply paranoid period but IMO they're not realistic and I know my situation).



The best I've been able to do is tell people when a vehicle will be at a certain shop so they can check it out if they're in the area. Yeah, I know, that's not much and AFAIK nobody's taken me up on it.



Anybody who thinks I'm BSing can talk to Paul Cusato at Growler Restorations (Cleveland OH), Jeff Stalker at Stoddard Imported Cars (Willoughby OH), or Brian Demrovsky at ECS Tuning (Norton OH). They've all seen my stuff in person. And yeah, they'll know who I am without my real name ;)
 
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