JohnKleven
New member
I see more and more people using a Festool on here. How does the power of the Festool compare to a Flex? Any major benefits of either one?
Flex 3401 vs. Festool RO 150FAQ anyone use both?
- Thread starter JohnKleven
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Thomas Dekany
New member
JohnKleven said:
I only see one person using it. I doubt that the Festool is more powerful. FLex is THE machine.:bigups:bigups:bigups
I used the flex for about 2 months before I sold it. If my memory serves me right the flex only operates in forced rotation mode. While the festool operates in both forced rotation and random orbit mode.
I'm more of a r/o person myself using the Kevin Brown method and this is where the Festool shines over any other machine on the market. I can easily do extreme correction at speed 5 on the festool in r/o mode. The festool has very low vibration, think half of the G110v2 which IMO has the lowest vibration of the $150 machines. The festool has a smaller throw then most of the $150 r/o's which helps to keep the vibrations down, the shorter throw has no effect on correction ability with the festool.
So if you are thinking of using either machine with M105/205, the festool is the easy choice. But even if you might used the forced rotation at times, the festool is a more quality machine. It is very easy to handle.
Power in forced orbit mode:
From what I can remember I could use the flex at speed 6 and once you got use to the forced orbit mode it was fine. Plenty of power for sure even at speed 5, but apply some good pressure needed for extreme correction via the KBM and she likes to walk a bit.
Festool in forced orbit mode: Plenty of power even at speed 5. At speed 6 its likes to walk too with pressure, but I still find the festool to be more controllable then the flex.
The only downside to the festool is cost, which I don't mind paying for quality and the festool is very loud. You will be wearing earplugs.
John, If you have anymore questions about the festool Bob from Auto Concierge also uses one. I would also be happy to answer any other questions you might have.
I'm more of a r/o person myself using the Kevin Brown method and this is where the Festool shines over any other machine on the market. I can easily do extreme correction at speed 5 on the festool in r/o mode. The festool has very low vibration, think half of the G110v2 which IMO has the lowest vibration of the $150 machines. The festool has a smaller throw then most of the $150 r/o's which helps to keep the vibrations down, the shorter throw has no effect on correction ability with the festool.
So if you are thinking of using either machine with M105/205, the festool is the easy choice. But even if you might used the forced rotation at times, the festool is a more quality machine. It is very easy to handle.
Power in forced orbit mode:
From what I can remember I could use the flex at speed 6 and once you got use to the forced orbit mode it was fine. Plenty of power for sure even at speed 5, but apply some good pressure needed for extreme correction via the KBM and she likes to walk a bit.
Festool in forced orbit mode: Plenty of power even at speed 5. At speed 6 its likes to walk too with pressure, but I still find the festool to be more controllable then the flex.
The only downside to the festool is cost, which I don't mind paying for quality and the festool is very loud. You will be wearing earplugs.
John, If you have anymore questions about the festool Bob from Auto Concierge also uses one. I would also be happy to answer any other questions you might have.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
Man, I gotta put that machine on my early X-Mas list before EVERYONE starts using one. :LOLOL
Kevin Brown
New member
I have used both machines, albeit for only a limited time. I guesstimate only a few hours total using each machine.
My choice?
Between the Flex XC 3401VRG and the Festool Rotex RO150 FEQ....
The Festool is far and away my favorite. Comfortable, versatile, powerful. :up
It is very expensive, but chock that up to stringent company policy in regards to pricing. If all the other power tool companies "requested" that their machines be sold at no lower than M.A.P. (minimum advertised pricing), a DeWalt DW849 would run you about $380.
I thought the Festool was WAY more comfortable to use than the Bosch 1250DEVS, which is similar to the Festool.
I have not yet tried a Makita BO6040, but it certainly has a loyal list of users.
My choice?
Between the Flex XC 3401VRG and the Festool Rotex RO150 FEQ....
The Festool is far and away my favorite. Comfortable, versatile, powerful. :up
It is very expensive, but chock that up to stringent company policy in regards to pricing. If all the other power tool companies "requested" that their machines be sold at no lower than M.A.P. (minimum advertised pricing), a DeWalt DW849 would run you about $380.
I thought the Festool was WAY more comfortable to use than the Bosch 1250DEVS, which is similar to the Festool.
I have not yet tried a Makita BO6040, but it certainly has a loyal list of users.
Junebug
JAFO
I "need" another buffer like I need a speedo at the beach. But, I -like David and others - like to have choices. I have a PC, PCXP and a Cyclo. I have had a Flex and a Makita rotary. So, the Festool vs the Makita B06040 - is the question for me.
Bryan - exactly how loud is that thing and can you use regular backing plates?
Bryan - exactly how loud is that thing and can you use regular backing plates?
autoconcierge
New member
I have had mine since 04, have the Flex as well which has it's place but I prefer the Festool. The machine has been used almost everyday since I bought it............ sells itself imo, great for big panels with a 6" or 6.5" inch pad and smoothness.
That being said I bought the megs V2 from PAC last week per Kevin Brown's input and of course the "J"(dave @ street dreams ) if you are a craftsman you need quality tools in abundance.
That being said I bought the megs V2 from PAC last week per Kevin Brown's input and of course the "J"(dave @ street dreams ) if you are a craftsman you need quality tools in abundance.
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
I've run the Flex, Festool, Bosch, and Makita side by side.
I have three of the Makitas. I use them hard every day and I like spreading the stress around and being able to loan one out so people I talk to can try them and see if they can run it.
The Festool would be second choice, Bosch, third and Flex last. Just based on how effective each tool is, the amount of time it takes to get the finished result.
Robert
I have three of the Makitas. I use them hard every day and I like spreading the stress around and being able to loan one out so people I talk to can try them and see if they can run it.
The Festool would be second choice, Bosch, third and Flex last. Just based on how effective each tool is, the amount of time it takes to get the finished result.
Robert
Thomas Dekany
New member
WhyteWizard said:
Which Makita is your first choice? So the festool is better at correcting than the flex3401?
Junebug
JAFO
The Festool looks cool, but it's out of my price range. I saw a BO6040 for $285 on line and IF I do get another buffer, that would be my choice. Anybody (WW?) want to post some videos comparing them?
I'm out of commission with a ruptured disc in my lower back, so watching TV and surfing the Net is about all I can do for the next 3 days (doc's orders)
I'm out of commission with a ruptured disc in my lower back, so watching TV and surfing the Net is about all I can do for the next 3 days (doc's orders)
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
tdekany said:
The Makita BO6040. In my opinion, from the amount of heat generated and because of the action of the various machines I rated them according to how well they'd work for correction. In my work, I use the rotary, at the moment one of my 9227 c Makitas, or the Hitachi - nosier but more powerful and slightly lighter - SP18VA for correction.
Because I work with my polish in the pad, not slurrying around on the surface, I can see through the polish residue and see when the scratches are gone and also when a scratch is too deep to remove.
There is an alternative opinion that heat is bad, for those people there's a dial on the Makita that goes up and down. Also, when running that machine, because it spins the opposite direction, counter clockwise instead of clockwise, to the rotary, I've found it's helpful to hold the machine with my hands reversed, that is, right hand on top, left hand on the handle, using my left index finger for the power tab.
Robert
Thomas Dekany
New member
WhyteWizard said:
Does the makita RO has more torque than the flex? How does it correct faster?
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
tdekany said:
The difference is in how the two machine get their forced rotation. The Flex is basically a random orbital that forces the pad to spin by interfacing the backing plate with the housing. So, the orbit goes one direction the pad spins the other.
The Makita has planetary gears that force the pad to spin the same direction as the orbit which creates more revolutions per minute and more movement between the pad and the paint.
The Festool's movement is similar to the Makita's but it's orbit is slightly smaller.
Robert
Todd@RUPES
Just a regular guy
WhyteWizard said:
I don’t know which is more powerful, the Makita or the Flex, because I have very limited experience with the Makita, and only moderate (compared to many others) experience with the Flex.
However there are a couple of points that I think are relevant to this discussion.
The direction of orbit vs. rotation is really a non-factor when it comes to corrective ability because we are dealing with objects that are moving in 360 degree motions. Even if the orbit and rotation are the same direction (counter clockwise for example) the orbit and rotation will still spin against each other for 180 degrees, depending on which part of the pad you are looking at.
Figure one shows a DA machine which the orbit and revolution are the same direction. Yet at the same point in the orbit (roughly 270 degrees) half of the pad is accelerating with the orbit BUT the opposite corner is moving against the orbit.
Fig two shows a DA machine in which the direction of the orbits and revolutions are opposite. Because we are dealing with 360 degrees of movement, once again we have half of the pad accelerating in the same direction of the pad and half the pad moving against the rotation.
The net effect on the total movement between the paint and the pad is ZERO. If we are measuring the total area the pad is moving (per a given time) across the paint, we will find that machines will similar directions will have more acceleration and de-acceleration in a given orbit, but only slight. The total distance covered will be identical. When the orbit and rotation are heading the same direction (on the outer edge) the pad will accelerate to a spot faster, but then will stall quickly and move backwards slightly, before whipping back out on an arc.
When the movements are opposite, the pad will accelerate more gently, but will slow less, make a less dramatic turn (loop) and resume accelerating smoother. The total distance covered will be identical. It is like driving 45 mph, then slowing to 15 mph, then smoothly accelerating back to 45 mph in a given time frame instead of starting at 50 mph, slowing to 5 mph, and accelerating back up to 50 mph in the same time frame.
My second point, in regards to the Flex vs. the Makita is that the Makita will deliver more RPM and OPM, thus has more cutting ability (potential) if the strokes are identical.
The Flex has a maximum RPM of 480, as verified independently. The Flex will always orbit at 10 orbits per RPM, this is easy to test. Simply spin the backing plate one full rotation and count the amount of times the machine orbits (snakes in and out). A small piece of tape may help. You will always get 10 orbits per RPM, and will a maximum of 480 RPM (verified by a strobe light) you are limited to 4800 OPM max. I am not sure how Flex comes up with a number of 9600 OPM, they must count the inside 180 degrees and the outside 180 degrees of each orbit as separate?
By Flex’s apparent rating the PC/Meguiar’s G110v2 would both have orbit ratings of 13,600 (!) and the Makita 2mode would have rating of 11,600 OPM.
So at least when it comes to the ringside numbers the Makita 2mode has an advantage in both RPM potential (670 vs. 480) and OPM (5800 vs. 4800). When they step into the ring and pressure (thus bog) is applied, I am not sure how they pan out. The Flex is able to maintain near maximum RPM (and OPM) with fairly heavy pressure (as verified by a timer and strobe light). I am unsure about the Makita, but on paper it certainly has higher potential.
autoconcierge
New member
TH0001 said:I don’t know which is more powerful, the Makita or the Flex, because I have very limited experience with the Makita, and only moderate (compared to many others) experience with the Flex.
However there are a couple of points that I think are relevant to this discussion.
The direction of orbit vs. rotation is really a non-factor when it comes to corrective ability because we are dealing with objects that are moving in 360 degree motions. Even if the orbit and rotation are the same direction (counter clockwise for example) the orbit and rotation will still spin against each other for 180 degrees, depending on which part of the pad you are looking at.
Figure one shows a DA machine which the orbit and revolution are the same direction. Yet at the same point in the orbit (roughly 270 degrees) half of the pad is accelerating with the orbit BUT the opposite corner is moving against the orbit.
Fig two shows a DA machine in which the direction of the orbits and revolutions are opposite. Because we are dealing with 360 degrees of movement, once again we have half of the pad accelerating in the same direction of the pad and half the pad moving against the rotation.
The net effect on the total movement between the paint and the pad is ZERO. If we are measuring the total area the pad is moving (per a given time) across the paint, we will find that machines will similar directions will have more acceleration and de-acceleration in a given orbit, but only slight. The total distance covered will be identical. When the orbit and rotation are heading the same direction (on the outer edge) the pad will accelerate to a spot faster, but then will stall quickly and move backwards slightly, before whipping back out on an arc.
When the movements are opposite, the pad will accelerate more gently, but will slow less, make a less dramatic turn (loop) and resume accelerating smoother. The total distance covered will be identical. It is like driving 45 mph, then slowing to 15 mph, then smoothly accelerating back to 45 mph in a given time frame instead of starting at 50 mph, slowing to 5 mph, and accelerating back up to 50 mph in the same time frame.
My second point, in regards to the Flex vs. the Makita is that the Makita will deliver more RPM and OPM, thus has more cutting ability (potential) if the strokes are identical.
The Flex has a maximum RPM of 480, as verified independently. The Flex will always orbit at 10 orbits per RPM, this is easy to test. Simply spin the backing plate one full rotation and count the amount of times the machine orbits (snakes in and out). A small piece of tape may help. You will always get 10 orbits per RPM, and will a maximum of 480 RPM (verified by a strobe light) you are limited to 4800 OPM max. I am not sure how Flex comes up with a number of 9600 OPM, they must count the inside 180 degrees and the outside 180 degrees of each orbit as separate?
By Flex’s apparent rating the PC/Meguiar’s G110v2 would both have orbit ratings of 13,600 (!) and the Makita 2mode would have rating of 11,600 OPM.
So at least when it comes to the ringside numbers the Makita 2mode has an advantage in both RPM potential (670 vs. 480) and OPM (5800 vs. 4800). When they step into the ring and pressure (thus bog) is applied, I am not sure how they pan out. The Flex is able to maintain near maximum RPM (and OPM) with fairly heavy pressure (as verified by a timer and strobe light). I am unsure about the Makita, but on paper it certainly has higher potential.
I meant to say this ^ ......................... but I did not have time(or the ability to explain how RO machines work with diagrams that rival quantum physics!!!!!!) me thinks you get a consensus about equipment and then buY it........... or don"t.
I would get my hands on a machine then use it before I posted an opinion on said machine, if a polisher gives you correction to your expectations than that is good enough at the end of the day.
imported_WhyteWizard
New member
TH0001 said:
Your illustrations don't take into account the way the different machines achieve forced rotation. I'd agree if they both got there the same way, but when the outside edge of the pad is moving with the direction of movement there is more net movement at any give rpm. One direction, with forced rotation achieved by planetary gears adds movement while forced movement by interfacing with the backing plate adds less. Put them side by side and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. The outside edge on the flex doesn't make full circles.
It is interesting to me that the Makita draws less amps but still gets more movement. Also, since I work on a lot of fragile cars, cars with large aluminum panels that can be warped or dented, I try to keep the correction happening by movement between the pad and the paint, not pressure. When, for example, I use my rotary, I sometimes run right up on the edge of the pad but when I do, I have very light pressure. It looks scary but the outcome is fine.
All this being said, I have no doubt other detailers are getting good, even great results using methods and materials different from mine. I've seen their work, (Hey Barry, Kevin, Eric etc.) So, for me, what this is about is just letting people know what I've figured out and to check my work and to learn from people who's experience is different from mine.
Robert
Junebug
JAFO
Now this is why I read threads here, great info and civil discussion. Thanks to Todd and Robert! The wife just gave me that, "you ain't getting another buffer look", sure hate that when it happens, but this time she's right. We're going to get an electric power washer today, no, not a cheap POS from the box store, a 400 buck one from Northern Tool. Guess that Makita will be a B-day present.