Finishing Quality Of Long Throw Machines

bswombaugh

New member
I think we all agree that there is no doubt of the superior correction ability of the new Long Throw Polishers with the 21mm throw vs the std. 8mm type machines. My question is however related to the statement made by Jason Rose that the Long Throw machines such as the Rupes 21 also finishes down better than than the 8mm polishers. Can any of you guys verify that you have personally found that to be true?
 
The 21 will certainly keep the abraded paint residue and polish away from the centre of the pad which is a problem with 3mm throw machines of old
however I'm not sure if that means that a 21 will finish better than an 8. I'm buying a new 1000 watt 8mm machine soon so I'll test it

I know one thing though,the Rotary is still the best at finishing with new ultra low speed rotary machines like the now discontinued fein which I own

Mf and da will leave a great finish but isn't the pinnacle however
 
Also, I occasionally hear guys complaining about micro marring when finishing with a long throw. I dont know, I just know I dont like how a 3401 finishes. I usually just use a 8mm throw DA, but Jasons comment makes me think.
 
Also, I occasionally hear guys complaining about micro marring when finishing with a long throw. I dont know, I just know I dont like how a 3401 finishes. I usually just use a 8mm throw DA, but Jasons comment makes me think.

I own a 3401 and pretty much feel the same as you. I use it for the major correcting but most always use my HF DA for finishing.
 
Mike would this also be true for a coating ready finish? I find waxes can hide some minor micro marring where a coating just makes it pop out.

Just curious. I always need to do a finishing step before a coating and I realize my polishing skills are very basic at this point.

You can get a wax ready finish with a compound and a microfiber pad, do it all the time.
 
Can't help but think of how the Cyclo is considered a "long throw" polisher...it's my fave for finishing/burnishing.

And yeah, I can't get quite the finish I want out of the Flex 3401 either.
 
I always follow a compound with a polish,however using a SWA with the compound you can get a finish that has no micro marring. I guess it depends on the paint but I guess if you are happy with the finish you can certainly coat it. The super micro abrasives and a little water can do wonders!
 
Every compound and polish that works with a DA will work with a rotary, but not every compound made for a rotary will work with a DA. So my guess is that large stroke has the ability to quickly break down the new technology polishes whereas smaller stroke machines are not as efficient. Many, including myself, believe a rotary or large stroke machine can finish better than a traditional 8mm DA.
 
I didn't notice any difference when polishing with a 21mm vs 8mm on my car's paint specifically.

Both came out looking perfect IMHO.

I used completely different pads, polish, and speeds, but the same number of passes.
 
Thats a great question. I wondered about that when Jason said it. Where is Todd Helme to explain in his genius type of way?

Here we go… lol…

When we are talking about finish quality, we could likely sum it up simply as what leaves a more level surface. It is important to understand that there is no such thing as a perfectly polished finish… polishing always imparts a scratch pattern on the surface - in order to remove material we have to use abrasives that abrade the surface.

Most polishers fall between 6mm and 21mm’ of stroke/throw/orbit length. What does this mean? The stroke or throw is the diameter from one point of the orbit to the opposing spot. Take a bicycle pedal. If we measure the distance between the pedal when it is at the very bottom of its orbit and the top of its orbit, we would have the stroke length.

In order to examine the effect that orbit length has on the finish we will take each to the extreme and then work to the common lengths. First, imagine you are holding a foam wax pad on the surface of a car. Now imagine you are rubbing in circles similar to the motion Mr. Mygai made famous in “Karate Kid.” Loaded on your pad are tiny abrasives equally spaced 3 mm apart.

If you move in very tiny circles (orbits), perhaps the diameter of the top of a pencil eraser (about 2 mm) what will happen? These tiny circles will begin to burrow into the spots they are repeated rubbed over. The small circles create a “tight” turn or circumference as they are only covering slightly more than 6 mm (pi x 2 mm) for every 360 degrees of turn. This is similar to digging your heel in when you pivot. The combination of focusing your energy into a small area, making a sharp turn, and burrowing in means we will aggressively remove material from isolated spots. The end result is a very uneven surface - hardly the best from a gloss perspective.

Now let’s take the orbit size to the next extreme, and make meter (yard) long orbits. The end result is equally unimpressive for different reasons. The extremely large throw still prevents cross-hatching of the abrasives (spaced 3mm apart) and creates a visible scratch pattern because the marks are linear. Also the area in the center of the orbit size will not even be touched, resulting in a ring the diameter of the pad that has been effected…

So we know that too large of an orbit is ineffective and too small creates an uneven surface. Somewhere in the middle between the extremes is the ideal result we are looking for. So what orbit length creates the best finish?

There are a large number of variables at play. How tightly are the abrasives packed onto the pad, what type of pad is being used, how is the paint reacting to the polishing process, how much speed is being used, etc..

We end up with a dynamic bell curve. The truth is that all of the common orbit lengths tend to work well for finishing quality (larger than 6 mm). However moving larger than the minimum length tends to result in a gentler turn (remember the digging the heel in analogy) as well as removing more material (paint residue and loaded abrasives) from the surface (preventing burrowing).

On most paints, you will not be able notice a difference in gloss when using the different common orbit lengths. However, on difficult (haze-prone) paints you may be able to see a noticeable different - all variables remaining the same. On a difficult repainted G37, if found that with my combination (RUPES Yellow Pad / Keramik Gloss Polish) the 15 and 21 mm BigFoot Polishers produced a noticeably better finish than other tools.
 
It's kind of a paradox I don't claim to understand.

On the one hand, some people state larger throw machines finish better than smaller throw machines. However, the "smallest throw" machine (zero orbit rotary) also has it's disciples who claim it finishes better than other tools.

Can anyone explain this?
 
I've always said I thought the long throw polishers finish the best. The paint looks like it's been jeweled after I finish with a long throw polisher.

It's kind of a paradox I don't claim to understand.

On the one hand, some people state larger throw machines finish better than smaller throw machines. However, the "smallest throw" machine (zero orbit rotary) also has it's disciples who claim it finishes better than other tools.

Can anyone explain this?

I think it's the same reason certain polishes or compounds work better on certain paints in different environments....there's just a lot of variables and I don't think anyone is wrong. Some paints finish best with a rotary, some are impossible to finish with a rotary...etc etc etc.
 
.. the 15 and 21 mm BigFoot Polishers produced a noticeably better finish than other tools.

Even better than the Cyclo, huh?

Any discernable (let's assume "extremely particular observer" ;) ) diff between the 15 and 21? Yeah, I know I'm splitting hairs, but hey...it's Autopia.
 
It's too bad Mythbusters is on their last season. I would love to see them put all the buffers to a test. Although there are variables such as pads. polishes and of course - the human element. But, I'd bet they could rig up a jig with different machines, all using the same polish and pads and on the same paint. But, then there is the very valid point that certain machines "like" certain pads/speeds/pressure/polish and the hand of the operator has an influence too. The only test I've ever heard about was years ago when a guy showed a greater gloss factor after using a rotary.
You know, it's stuff like this that make me glad I retired from detailing!
 
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