Do you wax over sealant ?

[wannafbody]

You have to realize that due to the solvents used in waxes, in many cases, when you apply waxes over a sealant you don`t truly layer them. (I think P21s is a wax that can be layered over a sealant). The solvents can remove all or a portion of the pre-existang sealant laid down. Now, some of the newer water based sprays or washes will add a slight layer of gloss and protection on top of a previously applied sealant.

 

[m54daboll]

Answer: Ron made me do it.
Logic: It`s all Ron`s fault.
藍

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That`s a good collection of wax! I just got some of those Dodo Juice waxes in. I also have a fresh shipment of Son1c Wax coming in (even though he stopped making it). What do you think of Wolfgang Fuzion? I`ve been looking at that for awhile.

 

[m54daboll]

You have to realize that due to the solvents used in waxes, in many cases, when you apply waxes over a sealant you don`t truly layer them. (I think P21s is a wax that can be layered over a sealant). The solvents can remove all or a portion of the pre-existang sealant laid down. Now, some of the newer water based sprays or washes will add a slight layer of gloss and protection on top of a previously applied sealant.

Not all waxes have solvent in them. Most of them do, but there are still plenty of waxes you can layer on top of sealants with no issue.

 

[512detail]

That`s a good collection of wax! I just got some of those Dodo Juice waxes in. I also have a fresh shipment of Son1c Wax coming in (even though he stopped making it). What do you think of Wolfgang Fuzion? I`ve been looking at that for awhile.

Fuzion is great. I loaned my jar out to a friend and it came back almost empty. Guess he liked it too, lol.

It was gifted to me so no big deal.

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[Accumulator]

IMO the "wax`s solvents messing with sealant" will be product-specific. I`d lean towards thinking that any sealant that could be compromised by the carrier solvents in a wax must be one mighty wimpy sealant and I`d want to use something else. No wax is gonna compromise cured KSG or FK1000P, that`s for sure, it`s hard enough to compromise those with solvents that`re made for that job.

 

[Bill D]

I use Fuzion on my Accord. I’ve been happy with it for nine years.

 

[E-Jag]

Like a lot of you I also enjoy putting on a wax by hand but I`m sometimes unsure of what I am putting down. Duragloss, for example, calls everything a polish and I don`t know if some of their stuff is a wax or a sealant or a synthetic blend of some sort. Same with Collinite. As accumulator noted, it used to be you could put a wax over a sealant but not vice-versa. All thses years later, don`t know if that`s still the case.

 

[m54daboll]

Like a lot of you I also enjoy putting on a wax by hand but I`m sometimes unsure of what I am putting down. Duragloss, for example, calls everything a polish and I don`t know if some of their stuff is a wax or a sealant or a synthetic blend of some sort. Same with Collinite. As accumulator noted, it used to be you could put a wax over a sealant but not vice-versa. All thses years later, don`t know if that`s still the case.

I personally think you still can. Like you mentioned you cannot wax first, because the sealant won`t cure and bond to the paint. As previously mentioned, this varies product to product. I`d check with the manufacturer. There are even some crazy resin super-sealants out there where it is chemically impossible to layer the sealants. Adding an additional coating of sealant is a waste of time and effort because the sealant cannot chemically bond to itself. I would not top a wax on a sealant like this because it won`t be able to bond.

 

[Accumulator]

There are even some crazy resin super-sealants out there where it is chemically impossible to layer the sealants. Adding an additional coating of sealant is a waste of time and effort because the sealant cannot chemically bond to itself. I would not top a wax on a sealant like this because it won`t be able to bond.

Huh, interesting...but then there are a gazillion products I don`t know about.

The only "resin" stuff I`ve used are 845 and Autoglym SRP, and those absolutely can be layered, as can all the Sealants I`ve used (which isn`t a very long list).

 

[m54daboll]

Huh, interesting...but then there are a gazillion products I don`t know about.

The only "resin" stuff I`ve used are 845 and Autoglym SRP, and those absolutely can be layered, as can all the Sealants I`ve used (which isn`t a very long list).

The specific one I`m talking about is Shine Supply Daddy-O. Maybe its not the resins that make it not layerable then. I do know for a fact that you cannot layer Daddy-O with itself and I just assumed it was due to the resins.

 

[wannafbody]

Not all waxes have solvent in them. Most of them do, but there are still plenty of waxes you can layer on top of sealants with no issue.

Technically, any liquid wax has solvents, even if the solvent is water.

 

[wannafbody]

Huh, interesting...but then there are a gazillion products I don`t know about.

The only "resin" stuff I`ve used are 845 and Autoglym SRP, and those absolutely can be layered, as can all the Sealants I`ve used (which isn`t a very long list).

Maybe it depends on whether it`s a natural resin or synthetic resin. I think the other part of the equation is how it`s anchored to the paint.

 

[Accumulator]

I don`t know how/why some of these things work out the way they do...but the only time I`ve ever had a bad experience layering stuff was when I tried to apply UPP over top of the *CONSUMER* version of 1ZMP (works fine over the Pro version). It created a smeary mess (well, IMO..really just light pseudo-holograms that only I could see), obviously wasn`t bonding.

And yeah, every wax has solvents of some kind to keep the wax soft enough to be used for this. Even "straight waxes" like Souveran/etc. can do a fair bit of solvent-based cleaning, and somebody here had a quick topper of Souveran totally trash a fresh-ish coat of Collinite 476S, which did surprise me.

m54deboll- Heh heh, I`ve never even *heard* of Shine Supply! Eh, I could probably count the sealants I`ve tried on my fingers..and that`s including all the different versions of the same stuff. I bet there are a lot of combos that do/don`t work...

 

[acuRAS82]

IMO the "wax`s solvents messing with sealant" will be product-specific. I`d lean towards thinking that any sealant that could be compromised by the carrier solvents in a wax must be one mighty wimpy sealant and I`d want to use something else. No wax is gonna compromise cured KSG or FK1000P, that`s for sure, it`s hard enough to compromise those with solvents that`re made for that job.

I agree with Accumulator here. I have yet to see a sealant significantly/noticeably degraded by adding a wax that is not known for heavy solvent action (Collinites might be too solvent heavy to include in this, but they essentially seem to replace the underlying sealant in some capacity enough that overall longevity of the Collinite doesn’t seem to get hurt).

 

[Loach]

Brian at Apex Detail posted his Sonax Spray + Seal video recently, and using a sharpie marker dot as a reference he tested the stripping effectiveness of various cleaners against Sonax. And this made me realize, if we use the dot as a reference point we can quickly and easily test the cleaning power and/or the abrasiveness of LSP`s. If I lay down the dot on bare paint, spray Ice Detailer or Bead Maker on top, this isn`t going to degrade the dot. If I put another dot down on bare paint, try and wax over with Zymol Titanium with some decent pressure with a foam applicator pad, still not able to degrade the dot. Wax over with Meguiar`s Gold Class paste (polishing wax), it easily removes the dot that was waxed over with Zymol. Same test, sharpie dots on bare paint with and without Titanium on top, wax over this time with Pinnacle Souveran, both dots are removed fairly easily. So we can build some assumptions with this type of test, and put together a list of which LSP`s may be better to apply over a base protectant compared to others if the intent is to somehow not entirely compromise the original protectant in the process.

 

[wannafbody]

^ That`s a good idea but assumes that a permanent marker is of equal durability to a sealant. We have no scientific testing to compare the durability of a sharpie to any sealant. So again, no meaningful scientific conclusions can be drawn from that type of test other than that certain waxes do clean the paint more than other waxes.

 

[Loach]

^ That`s a good idea but assumes that a permanent marker is of equal durability to a sealant. We have no scientific testing to compare the durability of a sharpie to any sealant. So again, no meaningful scientific conclusions can be drawn from that type of test other than that certain waxes do clean the paint more than other waxes.

That`s right, we still don`t know the sticking power of the sharpie mark compared to the wax/sealant. We also have to assume that the wax or sealant can stick just as well over top of the sharpie dot as it can on bare paint. I`d have to do a sharpie strip, test hydrophobics after applying the LSP on top, and check for differences compared to the sealed portion without the sharpie strip after running some soap tests.

If the wax/sealant can stick just fine over the sharpie, and then we apply a product on top which removes the dot, then we can determine that the wax was removed in the process and therefore that top product is not maintenance safe for the base product.

Really want to test out coatings with this as well, coat over the dot and then see how much longer it takes with polishing to dig into the dot with the coating on top. Because we could just be polishing the top layer of the coating and remove a lot of hydrophobics giving the illusion of full removal, but in reality not dig completely through the coating layer.

 

[Accumulator]

Sorta random thoughts follow:

I question whether something`s effectiveness on Sharpie ink correlates to much related to LSPs. Noting that I haven`t done it for a while...doesn`t IPA strip Sharpie ink? (IPA is what I use to remove most Permanent Maker Ink and it generally works fine.) Yet IPA doesn`t strip wax or Polishing Oils. (Maybe somebody who really cares will go play with a Sharpie and IPA and report back..)

Souveran messes with 476S, but using Souveran over top of Pinnacle`s (old? AFAIK it`s discontinued..) Creme Glaz worked fine, and Creme Glaz, which was considered an early form of sealant, was one fragile LSP (yet the Souveran didn`t strip it; that was the standard "what you do with Pinnacle stuff" approach for a loing time back in the day).

BFAFPP is another fragile sealant that doesn`t last/protect as well as many waxes, yet plenty of people top that (not me though so no first-hand experience).

If a sealant is so easily stripped as to be untoppable with wax...most any wax...then I don`t see the point in using said sealant.

If the idea is to use a sealant first to provide more protection than the wax, why not just use a sealant that`s really durable? Waxing over top of...say, UPP...would be a complete waste IMO since the UPP, despite being a sealant, provides virtually zero protection against bugs/birds. Better to just use the wax by itself.

Eh, that idea leads to...IMO a whole lotta sealants are just "mediocre synthetic waxes" and nothing special protection/durability-wise. And IMO the whole "sealant first then a wax" is just a way of selling product and wasting people`s time.

 

[wannafbody]

Accumulator, in regards to your Pinnacle comments. I think using products within a family line increases the likelihood that they will play well together. When "you" start mixing product D with product G with product V "you" just don`t know what your going to end up with.

The thing with these new coatings is that non product line toppers may sit on the surface but may not adhere to the coating surface. I mean really, if everything sticks to the coating then what is the purpose of the coating?

There are some sleeper sealants out there. It`s just that the jet setting ones costing lots of money get the most attention of enthusiasts who assume the higher price tag equals a better product.

 

[Accumulator]

Accumulator, in regards to your Pinnacle comments. I think using products within a family line increases the likelihood that they will play well together. When "you" start mixing product D with product G with product V "you" just don`t know what your going to end up with.

I agree, even though I basically do *NOT* stick withing one Family. Meguiar`s is a perfect example..look how their glazes (oops, I mean "their Pure Polishes" ) play nice with their LSPs.

The thing with these new coatings is that non product line toppers may sit on the surface but may not adhere to the coating surface. I mean really, if everything sticks to the coating then what is the purpose of the coating?

That`s what I always figured. Although I`d expect anybody to know right away if there were bonding issues, like "do a tiny test-spot and evaluate".

There are some sleeper sealants out there. It`s just that the jet setting ones costing lots of money get the most attention of enthusiasts who assume the higher price tag equals a better product.

Oh man, ever since that "Detailing Expert" thought 476S was Dodo because "nothing else looks quite like that" I`ve been pretty cynical about Boutique Products.