Do synthetics really "bond" to paint?

C

Corey Bit Spank

Active member
Like the question says, do synthetic polymers like Zaino and acrylics like Klasse SG really "bond" to the paint? Is there any chemical reaction to cause this? Or is this just bad wording?
 
Wax also "bonds" it is just weaker than most synthetics. I don't know what you are looking for in terms of information but I think you should kick back and ponder the question with several beers. The word "bond" has several definitions.



If you are asking if there is a chemical reaction that changes the paint/paint surface when a synthetic polymer is applied the answer would be no.
 
For a synthetic to work, there has to be some type of reaction on the paint. I mean, we have to know more about the chemical make-up of a product to be able to know about this but we can't get it. They keep that information private.
 
Intel486 said:
For a synthetic to work, there has to be some type of reaction on the paint. I mean, we have to know more about the chemical make-up of a product to be able to know about this but we can't get it. They keep that information private.
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I'm going to figure this all out sometime within the next year. Of course it won't be taught in regular college chemistry, but oh oh-- I WILL FIND OUT! :)
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
I'm going to figure this all out sometime within the next year. Of course it won't be taught in regular college chemistry, but oh oh-- I WILL FIND OUT! :)
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keep us posted corey:up
 
Corey: research Van der Wal forces

These VdW forces causes the attachment to the painted surfaces. These are "glue-like" not a "chemical" reactive type bonding. The better the surface is prepped per product's instructions (i.e no oils) the stronger VdW attachments leading to better "bonding" or better stated "glueing" to surface of the sealant.
 
Please search, as suggested already. Every once in a while this complicated topic comes up, but it doesn't really have a very helpful "yes or no" answer to it.



Run a search, then grab a coffee, sit down, and read. Basic chemistry background helpful, but not required. :p
 
Bonding? Everyone knows it is gravity which keeps sealants and wax on cars. This is why you need to rewax every few weeks as the wax keeps falling off.



Chemists just want to complicate things :)
 
Lowejackson said:
Bonding? Everyone knows it is gravity which keeps sealants and wax on cars. This is why you need to rewax every few weeks as the wax keeps falling off.
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:rofl
 
blkZ28Conv said:
Corey: research Van der Wal forces

These VdW forces causes the attachment to the painted surfaces. These are "glue-like" not a "chemical" reactive type bonding. The better the surface is prepped per product's instructions (i.e no oils) the stronger VdW attachments leading to better "bonding" or better stated "glueing" to surface of the sealant.
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Static electricity. :) Now taking this into consideration, you wouldn't want oils present. Kind of like having a baloon statically stick to your hair, but say, put baking oil on your head and try the same, it will be quite difficult. :o :p



Then how do carnaubas stick to paint?
 
"Then how do carnaubas stick to paint?"





Same type of attachment but weaker and carnuabas do not have the benefit of true polymer internal crosslinking (molecular bonding between monomers (individual components of the sealant)) that creates a sheet-like attachment to the finish which creates VdW bonding stronger that individual carnauba or monomers of some resin-type (non-crossing linking) sealants.
 
blkZ28Conv said:
"Then how do carnaubas stick to paint?"





Same type of attachment but weaker and carnuabas do not have the benefit of true polymer internal crosslinking (molecular bonding between monomers (individual components of the sealant)) that creates a sheet-like attachment to the finish which creates VdW bonding stronger that individual carnauba or monomers of some resin-type (non-crossing linking) sealants.
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So going on a strictly chemistry discussion, Poorboys EX-P, as I recall, is resin based. So, it isn't the best layering sealant?



Is the internal crosslinking bond between the monomers still a VdW force? If I recall they're no the strongest bond, so wouldn't adding heat by applying more product break some of the bonds and rearrage some of the monomers? I guess it really doesn't matter, but you're probably not getting 1 full layer after each.
 
4DSC said:
Please search, as suggested already. Every once in a while this complicated topic comes up, but it doesn't really have a very helpful "yes or no" answer to it.



Run a search, then grab a coffee, sit down, and read. Basic chemistry background helpful, but not required. :p
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I think this is a good discussion.



It doesn't pinpoint one product, although it's open to be questioned (what type of synthetic is such and such, what are the general properties of that type, etc.)



:) I'll do a search to see what I can add to this thread.
 
And now we get to the brass tacks:



Waterborne coatings are typically composed of resins containing hydrophilic functional groups. These groups usually remain in the coating film and can have a negative impact on such film properties as weatherability and resistance against water and alkali. We have developed a new ambient temperature curable waterborne two-component system in which the hydrophilic functional groups are consumed by the crosslinking reaction. The new coating system consists of a waterborne acrylic resin, which contains both tert-amino and carboxylic acid groups, and a hardener, which contains both epoxy and alkoxysilyl groups. Since the presence of water in the system has a strong positive effect on the crosslinking reaction, the system provides superior film properties.In this paper, we will describe the crosslinking reaction mechanism and the film properties of the resulting acrylic-resin-based paint formulations.
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This result suggests that the carboxyl group contributes to the cross-linking reaction even at room temperature namely, the carboxyl group is also related to the cross-linking reaction in some extent.
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http://www.dic.co.jp/eng/rd/tech/rep0302/



I don't know how applicable the following is to detailing. But it seems as though resin polymers do crosslink, aided by the carboxyl group and--water. Probably not to the extent of a polymer synthetic. I don't know if you can conclude that the additional layers are not as durable with resins as are additional layers of polymers. Regular non-epoxy resins sans water and no carboxyl group do not crosslink--or this is what I'm getting off of these websites.
 
Corey Bit Spank said:
So going on a strictly chemistry discussion, Poorboys EX-P, as I recall, is resin based. So, it isn't the best layering sealant?
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Actually, products like EX-P, BF, UPP are amino resins that "crosslink via their amino group (-NH3). This bond is not as strong a the crosslink that a acrylic sealant forms during curing.



Is the internal crosslinking bond between the monomers still a VdW force?]
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No

No specific data but it would seem that the monomers of a acrylic create a "ionic" bond (strong) whereas the resin creates a covalent (electron sharing - weaker) type.



If I recall they're no the strongest bond, so wouldn't adding heat by applying more product break some of the bonds and rearrage some of the monomers? I guess it really doesn't matter, but you're probably not getting 1 full layer after each. [/B][/QUOTE]
 
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