DO SPOTS in CARPETS RETURN AFTER CLEANING??

B

buda

New member
Nothing is more frustrating for a detailer than to spend a great deal of time and effort to clean an automobile carpet until it is perfect. But the next day you get a call or worse the customer returns telling you the carpet is almost as dirty as it was before you cleaned it.



In cases this is called among professional carpet cleaners as recurring spots. Which go away during cleaning but show up the next day when the carpet is dry.



Some of the following information may be familiar to detailers but for many it might be the first time you read it.



Prevention



While you cannot sell all of your customers anti-stain/spot protection (Fabric Protection) this will help prevent the fibers from absorbing liquids spilled which gives the customer time to liquid before it stains.



Wrong Chemicals Used



A big problem for detailers who have customers come to them to remove stains and spots in their carpet and fabric upholstery is that they will have, before coming to you, used anything at hand to attempt a "do-it-yourself" cleaning. What that does is destroy any fabric protectant and in many cases setting the spot/stain making it even more difficult to remove.



A rule to keep in mind is that "likes attract likes." So to remove spots and stains you must use the correct stain remover. Never use too much either as leaving residues can be just as bad as the original stain/spot.



Spills can go into the backing and even further and then it spreads. So when you clean a small spot that has "spread" underneath you can get a recurring spot that is 5 or 10 times as large as the original.



Prepare if You Know it Will Return



If you have an idea that a stain or spot might return you need to let the customer know this so they will not be unhappy. I had a customer come in with a vehicle in which a cola had been spilled. I knew from experience we were not going to get it "all out." So I told the customer this and why and told them that when it showed up again to come in and we would get out the stain that "wicked" up and would continue to do so until it was completely gone.



There are some things you can do, that are not common in the detailing industry but used extensively in the professional car cleaning industry to prevent recurring spots/stains:



ACID RINSES



These rinsing agents will help to strip oily soil and shampoo and stain removing residues from the carpets.



ANTI-SOILING TREATMENTS



You can apply a fabric protectant to the area where you think you might have recurring spots/stains. These chemicals tend to attract these residues and they can then be vacuumed away.



ABSORBING POWDERS



You can try using soil absorbing powders that are applied to the spot/stain; worked in; allowed to dry and then vacuumed.



VAPOR STEAMERS



If you do not own a vapor steamer you should have one in your arsenal of cleaning tools. Even a simple mini vapor steame is enough to get out stains/spots. Just apply the appropriate stain/spot remover to stain; lay a damp white towel over the stain/spot and then hit the towel full force with the steamer. If you are lucky the stain will transfer to the towel and it is gone.



Try to use as little moisture as you can when removing stains/spots or shampooing carpets the carpet will dry faster and create less chance of mold forming.



Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

buda@detailplus.com
 
Good info Bud.



buda said:
In cases this is called among professional carpet cleaners as recurring spots. Which go away during cleaning but show up the next day when the carpet is dry.
Click to expand...



Isn't this the same think as "wicking"?



What's your opinion on using hot vs cold air to dry a damp interior? If you don't mind me adding to this; my experiences have shown that heat accelerates the "browing" and chemical drying/hardening in many applications. Especially in a setting where the interior was very soiled. I try to vac the carpet very well (slowly) and then towel it to lift away reminants of dirt and chemical. Once totaly dry I sometimes spray an alcohol based glass cleaner over the the surface and towel again. Works like a charm.
 
David



Thank you for the compliment. This was such a brief article on the concept of cleaning carpets.



Yes, recurring spots/stains could also be called wicking, but then how many detailers have ever heard of that term.



Do not use heated dryers because there really are not any that generate sufficient cfm of air to do a decent job. If you could get 2100 cfm from a heated dryer great, but I do not think you could afford one. Did a good article on drying interiors and the science of drying but I don't recall for which publication. Will have to check with my secretary who final types them for me and sends them out.



I am not sure why you would use a glass cleaner on carpets??? I am a firm believer in using chemicals "only" for the purpose they were formulated for. Acid rinses are designed to keep light colored carpets from browning. Browning occurs when you leave an alkaline chemical in the fibers which is what a carpet shampoo is. That is why white shirts; tee-shirts; briefs all get yellow or brownish after a few washes. They need to be rinsed with an acidic rinse.



Lots of science that goes into cleaning carpets properly.



But what do you do with an industry that cleaned carpets buy putting a 5 gallon bucket, half full of water next to the interior; glugging in a few ounces often too many ounces of the wrong chemical (degreaser) and then slopping a bunch of the watery, soapy solution all over the carpets and taking a scrub brush and scrubbing like hell and then using a shop vacuum to remove the moisture.



BUT leaving the oily soil residue and shampoo residue in the fibres to dry and become a sticky mess.



But that is the way, "we have always done it." Be dammed with learning the correct way and buying the right equipment and gaining the knowledge to do it right.



Pardon me if I sound cynical.



Bud A
 
buda said:
David



I am not sure why you would use a glass cleaner on carpets??? I am a firm believer in using chemicals "only" for the purpose they were formulated for. Acid rinses are designed to keep light colored carpets from browning. Browning occurs when you leave an alkaline chemical in the fibers which is what a carpet shampoo is. That is why white shirts; tee-shirts; briefs all get yellow or brownish after a few washes. They need to be rinsed with an acidic rinse.
Click to expand...



I’ve had a lot of success using glass cleaner as a final spruce to carpeting. Both in wholesale, retail and in my present applications. Because alcohol is a drying agent, it does a good job of not reintroducing wetness back into the carpet and also adds a really nice clean look to it also . Alcohol actually has several great uses in detailing and reconditioning. From removing tree sap, to oils, even makes for a decent solvent to remove certain stains from interiors too. It all comes down to what ever works for you in your setting.



As far as the cause of browning, I thought that was where is excessive dirt at the base of the carpet raises to the top during the drying process. I’ve found heat to force and magnify this effect) I didn’t realize it was from remnants of alkaline cleaners? I’m sure they don’t help with this though either? I’ve actually seen browning on interiors that were extracted as well, but I’m not certain they were finished with an acid rinse. Good info!
 
David



I am not here to tell you what to do. Only that it is much safer in our business to use chemicals for the purpose that they were formulated.



Using your logic that glass cleaner works on carpets, then you could juse Joy to wash your hair and liquid laundry detergent to bathe in? Or, engine degreaser as a carpet shampoo or leather cleaner. God knows they would all work well. Right?



Did you stop to think there might be elements in glass cleaner that could harm the carpet, long-term, or cause it to resoil faster?



With regard to browning you are confusing browning with wicking.



Browning is a chemical reaction that occurs when alkaline chemical residue is not neutralized with an acidic rinse for that purpose.



Hope that helps explain my position and the difference between browning and wicking.



Bud Abraham



Wicking is the physical action of dirt residue rising to the surface when it dries in a carpet.
 
Go to any janitorial supply company in your area and ask for an neutralizing acid-rinse chemical. They are often called things like: No Brown; Brown-Out, etc.



A janitorial supply company will know what you need. Few, if any detail chemical companies that I know of, sell such a product. We used to have one, but since few detailers knew what it was or that they should use it we discontinued it's production.



Regards

Bud Abraham
 
[With regard to browning you are confusing browning with wicking.]



I thought that ‘browning’ was caused by wet cleaning upholstery or carpet due to over-wetting and ‘Wicking’ or capillary action that brings dirt to the surface



[Browning is a chemical reaction that occurs when alkaline chemical residue is not neutralized with an acidic rinse for that purpose.]



I’m confused (which is very easily done) perhaps you could clarify it for me
 
TOGWT said:
[With regard to browning you are confusing browning with wicking.]



I thought that ‘browning’ was caused by wet cleaning upholstery or carpet due to over-wetting and ‘Wicking’ or capillary action that brings dirt to the surface



[Browning is a chemical reaction that occurs when alkaline chemical residue is not neutralized with an acidic rinse for that purpose.]



I’m confused (which is very easily done) perhaps you could clarify it for me
Click to expand...



TOGWT:



A person with your admitted knowledge of chemistry does not have to ask me to clarify what I meant by browning and wicking you know the answer I am sure.



If you believe I am incorrect then please say so. I'm not thin skinned if I am wrong I can certainly admit it



Bud Abraham
 
Mush Mouth



Thank you very much for your post regarding my post to TOGWT. He is not a customer he is a retired chemical engineer who clearly knows the answer to the question he asked me.



He is not a customer and no I would not and do not treat my customers with any disrespect.



If what I post is offensive to you then yes, you certainly have the option of not doing business with our company.



One cannot walk on egg-shells worrying about how others take what they say. That is not life.



The great Buddha once replied to an observer who saw that the crowd Buddha was speaking to were hurling insults at him and he did nothing.



The observer asked, "Great Buddha why do you allow these people to insult you."



He replied, "they do not insult me, because an insult is like a gift, you have the option of accepting it or rejecting it."



That is how it must be on the forums when people write things you might feel are an insult.



The problem is that many people are so insecure that when someone disagrees with what they say they take it personally. But in reality there is nothing personal in the disagreement at all, only that they disagree with what was said.



If you say something that I think is incorrect or that I do not agree with, you can be damm sure I will so post if I think it is inaccurate information. If you want to take that as an insult and personal, that is your option nothing I can do about it. But rest assurd that it is not at all personal.



My effort is to write articles, and post information that is well researched and accurate, certainly if anyone can find inaccuracies in what I write let me know, I will be the first one to admit my error.



Appreciate your posting so that I can offer my opinion on the matter. Just keep in mind there is no intention in any of my posts here to be arrogant or self righteous or all knowing. Just attempting to provide valid information.



TOGWT's post was, in my opinion, not honest. He knows the difference between browning and wicking and if he thinks I am wrong then answer my post to him and explain why I am wrong.



Bud Abraham
 
Buddha quotes?! Wow this forum is awesome. Although I don't take life lessons about self discipline from a 400 lb God. (that's a joke to lighten the mood)



While I don't understand the chemistry behind all that's being discussed. I do know Manu people use woolite for interior detailing and this isn't it's designed purpose. So...
 
[Browning is a chemical reaction that occurs when alkaline chemical residue is not neutralized with an acidic rinse for that purpose.]



No hidden agenda, and I don't post 'trick' questions. All I asked was for a clarification of the above statement, as the neutralisation of an acid or alkali is not termed 'browning'
 
Lotuseffect:



Glad you liked the quote from Buddha. However I think you are mixing the Great Buddha up with Ho Tai who was the 400lb god. (to lighten the mood, as you say).



The point of my post about using chemicals for what they are formulated is that detailers use a lot of things that seemingly work to clean cars with no respect to the hidden or long-term damage that the wrong chemical might cause.



For example, it is quite common to use engine degreaser to clean carpets. The logic is that if it is a dilution of 10 to 1 for engines, it is safe to use it 20 to 1 for carpets. Wrong, the formulation of an engine degreaser has ingredients (caustic sodium hydroxide) in it that are harmful to carpet fibers. Sodium hydroxide literally "burns" dirt off metal surfaces. You do not reduce the pH of an engine degreaser by diluting it, all you do is weaken the cleaning action of the chemical. The dangerous ingredients are still there at work.



You can wash your hair with Joy and it would do a good job, but at what cost to your scalp and your hair?



It has always been my contention to keep things simple. If a detailer purchases chemical from a legitimate chemical company and uses them as they are labeled they eliminate any change of damaging a vehicle. Just one more thing to not have to worry about in business. Don't guess, know what you are doing and by using chemicals in this way you know.



Regards
 
TOGWT said:
[Browning is a chemical reaction that occurs when alkaline chemical residue is not neutralized with an acidic rinse for that purpose.]



No hidden agenda, and I don't post 'trick' questions. All I asked was for a clarification of the above statement, as the neutralisation of an acid or alkali is not termed 'browning'
Click to expand...



John



Thank you for your reply.



We have a misunderstanding here, I also said that browning was a result of alkaline chemical not being neutralized by an acidic rinse. That was the entire point of the post.



I did not say that neutralizing an acidic chemical or an alkaline chemical was termed browning. If it appeared that I did it was not intended.



And, if yours was not a trick question, then I apologize. But knowing the chemical knowledge that you have I thought that it was a seeking an answer to a question you already knew the answer.



Glad we have that straightened out.



Regards
 
Buda,



I gues it really is kind of tightrope walking for us without the chemical knowledge of how a product does what it does. Detailing is a business which it is very easy to fall prey to spending unnecessary dollars on the next great product. For myself, I regulary have 2 separate solutions of OPC . 1 for engine bays and tire cleaning and another for interior surfaces.

Same thing with Traffic Lane cleaner. 1 dilution for carpets and one for upholstery. While these both these products are being used for their designated stated purpose by the manufacturer, when I ran out of traffic lane I substituted OPC for it on a couple vehicles.

My assumption I was making it "milder" by further dilution was apparently completely incorrect.



I guess the lesson I can learn from this is, as a professional detailer I should make a much better effort to learn why a product works, and not just trust my eyes to see it working.



I suppose I would not be alone in that regard and to be honest maybe this is something which separates me from some of the incredible detailers and examples of their work on this site. I will rectify this!
 
buda said:
John



Thank you for your reply.



We have a misunderstanding here, I also said that browning was a result of alkaline chemical not being neutralized by an acidic rinse. That was the entire point of the post.



I did not say that neutralizing an acidic chemical or an alkaline chemical was termed browning. If it appeared that I did it was not intended.



And, if yours was not a trick question, then I apologize. But knowing the chemical knowledge that you have I thought that it was a seeking an answer to a question you already knew the answer.



Glad we have that straightened out.



Regards
Click to expand...



I never try to put anyone on the spot by asking a question of them if I already know the answer. I was confused by the terminology used, simple as that.



I'm glad it ended amicably



Back to the programme - Water Marks (Browning)



Is caused by wet cleaning fabric or carpets, heat causes a capillary action that brings soil (in the form of a brown stain, hence browning) Clean and extract as normal. Follow with a sprayed mist of a 'souring agent' to prevent browning, colour bleed and those awful 'water marks'. Extract with plain water (no detergent).



Pro's Choice "Browning Treatment" (formerly known as Brown Out) is an excellent treatment for water stains on upholstered furniture, caused by wet cleaning, and treatment of brown out on upholstery or carpet due to over-wetting. Simply apply full strength to the problem area. Wait to dry and then evaluate.



See- http://www.autopia.org/forum/guide-detailing/136497-carpet-cleaning-care.html



 
THANKS FOR THE REPLY.



I gues it really is kind of tightrope walking for us without the chemical knowledge of how a product does what it does.



THAT IS THE POINT OF THE POST. IF YOU USE CARPET SHAMPOO FOR CARPETS; ENGINE DEGREASE FOR ENGINES; WHEEL CLEANER FOR WHEELS; GLASS CLEANER FOR GLASS, ETC YOU WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM.



AS WELL, THE INFORMATION ABOUT CHEMICALS IS OUT THERE, I HAVE WRITTEN NUMEROUS ARTICLES ON WHAT DETAIL CHEMICALS ARE; WHAT IS IN THEM AND WHY YOU SHOULD USE THEM AND NOT USE THEM, ETC. IF YOU GO TO PROFESSIONAL CARWASHING & DETAILING MAGAZINE'S WEBSITE YOU CAN LOOK IN THE ARCHIVES AND FIND THE ARTICLES. NO PROBLEM.





Detailing is a business which it is very easy to fall prey to spending unnecessary dollars on the next great product.



EXACTLY, THERE IS NOT "NEXT GREAT PRODUCT" THAT IS ALL MARKETING HYPE FROM THE CHEMICAL COMPANIES TO GET YOU TO BUY THEIR PRODUCT INSTEAD OF THE COMPETITOR. CHEMICALS IN OUR INDUSTRY ARE JUST BASIC CHEMISTRY NO MAGIC, WIZARDRY, ETC. FEW IMPROVEMENTS IN THE BASIC PRODUCTS YOU NEED TO USE IN YEARS. THEY ACT AS THOUGH THERE ARE, BUT THERE ARE NOT. WE HAVE NOT CHANGE THE BASIC FORMULAS OF MOST OF OUR PRODUCTS IN YEARS UNLESS SOME NEW AND BETTER SURFACTANT OR SOLVENT COMES OUT. BUT FOR THE MOST PART CHEMICALS ARE CHEMICALS. THE CHEMICAL COMPANIES MAY PUT A "HIT" OUT ON ME FOR SAYING THAT, BUT I KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT CHEMISTRY FORMULATING OUR OWN PRODUCTS TO SAY THAT WITH CERTAINTY.

For myself, I regulary have 2 separate solutions of OPC . 1 for engine bays and tire cleaning and another for interior surfaces.

Same thing with Traffic Lane cleaner. 1 dilution for carpets and one for upholstery. While these both these products are being used for their designated stated purpose by the manufacturer, when I ran out of traffic lane I substituted OPC for it on a couple vehicles.



YOU CAN DO THAT BUT IT IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO GO. FOR EXAMPLE, ENGINE DEGREASE IS STRONG, LIKE OVEN CLEANER, HIGH pH TO QUICKLY "BURN GREASE AND DIRT OFF OF METAL IN THE ENGINE." ONE CAUTION IF THE ENGINE HAS ALUMINUM HEADS THE ENGINE DEGREASER WILL STAIN THE ALUMINUM AS IT IS TOO HOT FOR NAKED ALUMINUM. IT HAS A pH OF ALMOST 14 WHICH IS THE HIGHEST YOU CAN GO ON THE pH SCALE. DILUTING IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE pH. IT WEAKENS THE CLEANING POWER. FROM 14 IT MIGHT GO TO 13 MAYBE 12 BUT THAT IS STILL TOO HOT FOR ANYTHING ELSE.



LOOK AT IT THIS WAY, YOU HAVE A SHOT OF WHISKEY IN A SHOT GLASS, ONE OUNCE. YOU PUT IT IN 6 OUNCES OF WATER YOU STILL HAVE 1 OUNCE OF WHISKEY AND IT IS NOT WEAKENED. YOU DRINK 4 OR 5 AND YOU WILL STILL GET DRUNK.



IF YOU USE AN ALL PURPOSE CLEANER FOR ENGINES AND WHEELS IT IS NOT FORMULATED STRONG ENOUGH TO QUICKLY CLEAN ENGINES, IT WILL WORK, BUT WILL TAKE LONGER TO DO THE JOB BECAUSE IT IS NOT STRONG ENOUGH.



CARPET SHAMPOO IS FORMULATED WITH A pH OF ABOUT 8, IT DOES NOT CONTAIN SODIUM HYDROXIDE WHICH COULD HARM CARPETS. IT CONTAINS SOFTENERS AND BRIGHTENERS ALLOWING THE CARPET TO FEEL SOFT TO THE TOUCH AND BRIGHT WHEN DRY. NO OTHER CHEMICAL HAS THAT. MAKE SENSE.



ALL CHEMICALS ARE, OR SHOULD BE FORMULATED AS I HAVE INDICATED. BACK ALLEY CHEMICAL COMPANIES WILL TELL YOU TO USE DEGREASERS FOR EVERYTHING OR THE SALESMAN WHO OFTEN KNOWS LESS THAN YOU ABOUT THE PRODUCTS THEY ARE SELLING WILL TELL YOU TO DO THINGS THAT YOU SHOULD NOT WITH CHEMICALS.



THAT IS WHY I SAY WHEN YOU ARE NOT SURE, THEN USE CHEMICALS FOR WHAT THEY ARE FORMULATED FOR. CARPET SHAMPOO FOR CARPETS; GLASS CLEANER FOR GLASS; ENGINE DEGREASER FOR ENGINES.



My assumption I was making it "milder" by further dilution was apparently completely incorrect.



AS EXPLAINED ABOVE. IT IS ALL ABOUT FORMULATION NOT WHETHER THE CHEMICAL WORKS OR NOT. OF COURSE DEGREASER WILL WORK ON CARPETS, BUT CAN AND ULTIMATELY WILL CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH THE CARPET, COLOR LOSS OR BREAKDOWN OF THE FABRIC.



I guess the lesson I can learn from this is, as a professional detailer I should make a much better effort to learn why a product works, and not just trust my eyes to see it working.



THAT IS EXACTLY THE REASON. HOW CAN YOU BE A PROFESSIONAL WHEN YOU DO NOT KNOW THE NATURE OF THE CHEMICALS YOU ARE USING? OR THE NATURE OF THE PAINT FINISHES YOU WORK ON. DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 2K THERMAL CURING PAINT SYSTEMS USED ON THE ASSEMBLY LINE; 2K THERMAL CURING PAINT SYSTEMS USED IN THE FACTORY AFTER THE ASSEMBLY LINE TO CORRECT FLAWS? AND HOW THESE ARE DIFFERENT THAN AFTERMARKET PAINT SYSTEMS? YOU NEED TO KNOW THAT IN MY OPINION TO CLAIM TO BE A PROFESSIONAL DETAILER AND HAVE THE RIGHT TO WORK ON PAINT FINISHES.



I suppose I would not be alone in that regard and to be honest maybe this is something which separates me from some of the incredible detailers and examples of their work on this site. I will rectify this![/QUOTE]



DON'T BE HARD ON YOURSELF THIS IS THE NATURE OF OUR INDUSTRY. THERE HAS BEEN NO REAL AUTO MANUFACTURER DICTATED FACTORY TRAINING PROGRAM FOR DETAILERS. IT HAS BEEN NOT MUCH BETTER THAN THE TRAINING A SHOE SHINER MIGHT GET. THEY HAVE A LOT OF PRODUCTS BUT I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A SHOE SHINE TRAINING SCHOOL.



AND, DON'T KID YOURSELF, THESE GUYS WHO CLAIM TO BE GREAT DETAILERS PROBABLY DON'T KNOW ANYMORE THAN YOU DO ABOUT CHEMICALS, ETC. THEY HAVE NOT HAD TO LEARN THIS INFORMATION. TRIAL AND ERROR, IF SOMETHING WORKS DO IT ON THE NEXT CAR WITH NO REAL KNOWLEDGE OF CARPET FIBERS; LEATHERS; PAINT SYSTEMS, PAINT FINISH PROBLEMS AND PROPER SOLUTIONS.



SOME OF THE ALLEDGED BEST DETAILERS DON'T HAVE THE LATEST TECHNOLOGY. A BUFFER, SHOP VACUUM, BRUSHES; TOWELS, A PRESSURE WASHER AND THAT IS ABOUT IT.



THE KEY IS NOW YOU KNOW THAT YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW TO A DEGREE WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW AND BEST OF ALL YOU ADMIT IT WHICH IS MORE THAN MOST DETAILERS WOULD DO. NOW YOU CAN FIND THE INFORMATION YOU NEED.



IF I CAN HELP CONTACT ME PERSONALLY AND I CAN DIRECT YOU TO ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO KNOW IN SIMPLE AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND TERMS.



ALL THE BEST,



BUD ABRAHAM
 
Just by taking the IICRC carpet cleaning class and spot removable can answer alot of these question. There is a method of carpet cleaning call encapsulation carpet cleaning which helps alot with browning issues.
 
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