Do ceramic paint coatings prevent swirls?

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WillWashesCars

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This has been a topic I have been seeing all over, but never properly discussed. People ask, do coatings prevent swirls. Then someone answers, well if the hardness is 9H (mohs), then its hard then clear, then it prevents scratches.

But who says hardness has any relation to scratch prevention? What about flexibility and surface tensions? No coatings boast their surface energy, or lack of. They all talk hardness and 9H, just like sealants boasted Teflon back in the day. But we soon learned, Teflon was useless. Is 9H or hardness really a DIRECT relation to scratch prevention? Or is there something more to this? I went into further detail in my article asking do ceramic paint coatings prevent swirls on It's Better Waxed.

But, I want to hear it from you guys.

Do ceramic coatings prevent swirls? Why?
 
From what I understand, coatings are not nearly thick or heavy enough to prevent swirls. Some light marring, sure. That's about it. They're there really as a barrier between chemical issues like water spot etching and bird bombs but most coatings can be very easily polished away by hand, and therefore Anything that would cause swirls would easily penetrate the coating and inflict the same damage.

Could be wrong, but that's my general understanding.
 
I have never seen any proof that they help with swirls/spider webbing. Interesting thread for sure. I know some coatings advertise scratch resistant, but like I said, I have never seen proof of this. And even if they do decrease the chance of swirls slightly, it doesnt mean you still shouldnt be very careful when washing the car... I know some detailers advertise Permanent, scratch resistant coatings....makes me wonder how many customers are going to be disappointed in a year?
 
Technically yes, why? They provide better more adhesion resistance. In other words they them selves might not stop scratches caused by washing but they do release road sediment easier. This translates to a better release of debris in a pre-wash (pressure wash) before any mitt contact. Less debris equals less physical abrasion which means less swirls from washing.

As as far as scratch resistance, I'm sure it's better then traditional cc, plus your essentially swirling the coating (if applied thick enough) an not the cc.
 
No. Coatings scratch as easily if not more so than factory clear coats. It's a marketing myth. Especially if applied wrong which unfortunately is a common problem. Imo the best argument for coatings is they offer the best sacrificial layer compared to other conventional alternatives but they are in no way scratch or swirl proof
 
The Driver is correct

The Silver Fox is incorrect, regarding the OP question. He is correct that coatings are not "swirl proof".
 
No coating is tested for Mohs hardness. They are tested for pencil hardness. A mohs hardness of 9 is just below diamond. If that were the case, how can the aluminum oxide in a compound scour it away such that it can be removed? A 9H pencil is a combination of graphite and hardened clay, that's not even on the level of sand. Similar thinking, if a coating can be removed by wetsanding, you could certainly expect it to be removed by wiping sand trapped in a wash mitt over the paint.

The OPs question was actually, does the hardness contribute to scratch resistance. The answer, NO.

There are other factors (such as the anti-fouling) that promote easier cleaning which would reduce the potential for swirls.
 
Isn't it a matter of degree? Some people here have credited coatings for vehicles remaining marring-free for a lot longer than they did with conventional LSPs.

Press something (like dirt) against the paint hard enough and then move that something while its under that pressure, and you're gonna get marring no matter what's on top of the paint (you can even scratch paint through transit wrap, let alone PPF).

But *heavily* layered KSG has prevented marring for me in accidental acid-test-type conditions where I had a real "oops!", and I'd sure expect a coating to provide more protection than KSG.
 
I would say with a coating it sheds most of its dirt with a strong hose. Less dirt to wash away less swirls, but ONR probably would reduce swirls more then the LSP would.
 
This has got me thinking much more conceptually about coatings. I don't think we will ever see a coating so hard it can't be scratched. By their nature, we need to have a method to remove these coatings in the event there is a high spot or other issue, moreover, a body shop needs to be able to scuff it for a repaint. If a coating were not able to be removed by mechanical or chemical action, then your alternative is to replace the panel. Even if we somehow get a coating that truely is harder than sand, now mirka/3M/meguiars need to develop abrasive that we can use to remove these coatings, perhaps a boron carbide, which I cannot imagine will be cheap to manufacture or mill to the tolerances we need for 3000 grit paper.

I think what we'll see is more self-healing options. If someone does get themselves a coating that can't be removed with wetsanding, may god help them when they find a high spot.
 
Here's a test report I got from Optimum in Australia. I believe this is a test of Opti-Coat Pro.

http://www.protektautodetailing.com/XC3166CoatingTesting.pdf

Scratch resistance is real but it doesn't make it scratch proof. If you have a soft clearcoat then it will certainly be more scratch resistant. Having said that, the biggest benefit of a good coating is it's ability to withstand acids (bug guts, bird poop) and other strong chemicals.
 
Audios S6 said:
No coating is tested for Mohs hardness. They are tested for pencil hardness. A mohs hardness of 9 is just below diamond. If that were the case, how can the aluminum oxide in a compound scour it away such that it can be removed? A 9H pencil is a combination of graphite and hardened clay, that's not even on the level of sand. Similar thinking, if a coating can be removed by wetsanding, you could certainly expect it to be removed by wiping sand trapped in a wash mitt over the paint.

The OPs question was actually, does the hardness contribute to scratch resistance. The answer, NO.

There are other factors (such as the anti-fouling) that promote easier cleaning which would reduce the potential for swirls.
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Audios, great information. What do you think about Gyeon's claim's on their web site of having a Mohs hardness of 3-5 depending on which of their product used? They seem to have a fair amount of information and videos on hardness. Looks interesting, but too good to be true?
 
Bmill said:
Audios, great information. What do you think about Gyeon's claim's on their web site of having a Mohs hardness of 3-5 depending on which of their product used? They seem to have a fair amount of information and videos on hardness. Looks interesting, but too good to be true?
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I couldn't say if it's too good to be true, only how I perceive it. If they have independent testing that confirms it, well, that's hard to argue.

From my personal testing, which I think is consistent with other's observations, the slickness and anti-fouling have a far greater contribution to scratch resistance than whatever properties are being measured by Mohs, Pencil or AS 1580 testing. Certainly the results are valid, and perhaps good for comparing the hardness of one product to another; but I don't think the testing necessarily represents the real world conditions nor is it measuring a substantial contributing factor. I think this is at the heart of the OP's intent with the thread.

Even if the Gyeon's claims are true, it just doesn't hold much weight with me. That silly lighter test can be replicated with a spray wax or spray detailer, which is a pretty good indication that the hardness isn't really at the core of scratch resistance. Regardless of any of this testing or claims (inclusive of my own) about the properties of these coatings and what makes them good, I think it single biggest factor in scratch resistance is the human factor. Do a proper wash/maintenance and you will reduce the potential for swirls; take it to the tunnel and all bets are off.

In fairness, I have not watched the Gyeon videos to know exactly what they show or claim.
 
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i see this from time to time on my facebook feed from Gyeon. while its not 100% its still impressive
 

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Bmill said:
Audios, great information. What do you think about Gyeon's claim's on their web site of having a Mohs hardness of 3-5 depending on which of their product used? They seem to have a fair amount of information and videos on hardness. Looks interesting, but too good to be true?
Click to expand...

I would question some of the 3rd party testing claims too and take them with a grain of salt. We don't know how many layers were applied to the panels that are supplied to them or if it was IR cured and if so for how long.

IMO the best testing is the one you do yourself.
 
Varies so much on the type of paint/coating install. Also I like to dodge bullets vs assume the body armor is going to save everything.
 
First of all thank you for all the information on this thread. Many of you are very highly skilled professionals and I have seen a number of you posting the number of sites. It is always really interesting to see your experiences and opinions. As for me I'm just a car guy bitten by the detail bug. I did want to make it clear however that I do not believe that any coating on paint can "prevent" scratches or swirl marks. However logic does draw me to the conclusion that in today's world chemist can discover or design substances to apply on top of paint to reduce scratches, swirl marks, etc..

Clearcoat seems to be the first example of that in my brain. When I start thinking about clear coats, I assume chemist can probably come up with some that reduce scratches and swirl marks more than others. Something in my brain also tells me that the accountants and lawyers would shoot down many of these harder and more expensive coatings that the chemist have designed. The harder coatings may cost more and the accountants do not see a return on the average car purchase to having that coating. Then lawyers probably would agree with me that no coating would be "scratch proof" and thereby disallowing that term from being used. So I assume cars coming from different manufacturers would have different coatings with different hardens based on a combination of the chemist, accountants, lawyers and marketers views.

So it seems to me there's a aftermarket niche to deal with this situation. Then in the aftermarket one would assume there is also a difference in the hardness of the coatings do to trying to balance longgevity, beading, glossiness, price and other factors.

Personally I'm most interested in increasing the scratch resistance of my clearcoat and the overall gloss/wetness look of my car. Durability in price fall lower on my list. In my view it would be wonderful to have a third-party professional testing lab actually test the top five for six products for hardness and gloss. Next best is to get learned professionals like yourselfs opinions based upon years of experience. Probably the least qualified opinion on the planet would be mine!

Damn this is an addictive hobby! and a big thank for helping make it more interesting.
 
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