Difference between #16 and #26?

[Setec Astronomy]

Mike,



I don't quite know why you are flogging this so vigorously but now you say the carnauba is darkening the paint.

I'm flogging this because I hear regurgitated marketing hyperbole. YOU said darkening, I have experienced darkening with LSP's, including NXT, which to my knowledge has no yellow carnauba, or any carnauba, for that matter.

Now we know #26 is yellow carnauba based. Why would the darkening be anything but a shade of yellow?

But yellow carnauba is THE premium carnauba (Pinnacle says so, that's the only thing they use in Souveran, after they "refine" it to ivory)...so why doesn't #16 or a host of other carnaubas yellow the paint? Or do they use the cheap carnauba, that doesn't yellow...which would make the cheap waxes better...or would that be that the expensive waxes use the cheap carnauba, while the (relatively) cheap #26 uses the expensive yellow carnauba...see why I am confused?

 

[SilverLexus]

I am not sure as much about other carnaubas effect on paint except that I see less clarity than that found in a good sealant like Zaino.



What I do know is that #26 will darken with yellow silver paint and oyster paint. Sometimes it looks cool at sunset but overall I prefer clarity having experienced both.



Let me ask you a question: Since you believe #26 is darkening paint, what color is it darkening the paint by?

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Let me ask you a question: Since you believe #26 is darkening paint, what color is it darkening the paint by?

If you take a very oxidized car and wash it, and leave it wet, it will appear much darker while it's wet than when it was dry...is the transparent water yellowing the surface? Is it darkening it? Or is it changing the refractive index of the surface and reflecting the light differently?

 

[TigerMike]

That's a lot more scientific than some Zaino or Pinnacle marketing hyperbole about "optical clarity", which no one here has given any definition of or testing or test methods as it applies to anything approaching the "thickness" of an LSP coating.

Sometimes we don't need science to prove anything to be true or support an opinion. At one time, science had all concluded that the Earth was flat. It turns out it was one man's experience that proved otherwise, not a bunch of scientific tests. I know from experience that I didn't imagine a red car going from a orangish/yellow tint to a pure red afterwards. It was very noticeable to me. I don't need scientific tests to prove that it happened, because it did happen, with my own eyes. Look at the base ingredients of two formulas, one a carnauba wax (#26 for example) with yellow wax as the base and another a clear poylmer resin. Which would impart more of a tint to a surface?



I cannot explain why other waxes I have used may or may not have created the same effect, and why it has been most noticeable with #26 of all the carnaubas I've used. Maybe it has to do with the actual carnauba concentration in the formula, the refinement, or whatever else. It boils down to a lot of factors for which we do not have access to the information to find out for sure, therefore, experience is the next best thing.



Do pollen particles turn a car a shade of green (albeit at a much more rapid and noticable rate)? Certainly. Then what's so absurd about a wax imparting a yellowing tint? Both natural substances with their own natural colors.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Look at the base ingredients of two formulas, one a carnauba wax (#26 for example) with yellow wax as the base and another a clear poylmer resin. Which would impart more of a tint to a surface?

Do you know that Zaino or whatever sealant you are talking about has a clear polymer resin? My Z5 and Z2Pro are pretty darn opaque.

 

[jfelbab]

This is simply not true Jim. Different sealants have different optical qualities. Some are more clear than others.

Prove it to me.



I've already indicated that you can test this for yourself by putting a coat of a product on a piece of glass and inspect it. I've already done this with several products so I know what you will see.



I'm not talking about pouring a glob of product on the glass and letting it dry, just apply and remove the same as you would apply to a painted surface. #16, #26, NXT Tech Wax, Zaino, Zymol, all are optically clear at the thickness normally left on paint.



Anyone else want to do this test, go ahead and post your results.



For my money, optical clarity is just so much marketing jive.

 

[SilverLexus]

If you take a very oxidized car and wash it, and leave it wet, it will appear much darker while it's wet than when it was dry...is the transparent water yellowing the surface? Is it darkening it? Or is it changing the refractive index of the surface and reflecting the light differently?

You did not answer the question...

 

[jfelbab]

So we are in agreement here. Seems like Setec (Mike) is the only one questioning this.

I don't think we are in agreement. What I said was:

I've used #26 for years and find it 'darkens" the paint slightly. Not yellow, but darken. You can see this on medium color cars quite easily. Especially apparent on red. It has more to do with the way it reflects light than any imagined coloring left by the wax.

#26 does make the paint look darker but this is due to the way it reflects and bends light. It doesn't actually change the color of the paint or coat the paint with a tint. It just changes the way light is reflected and refracted. It gives the appearance of a very deep warm glow.



Kind of similar to the way Zaino is highly reflective and lacks warmth or depth. It is due again to the way the products reflect and refract light.

 

[imported_DieselMDX]

wow go get'm guys

 

[SilverLexus]

#26 does make the paint look darker but this is due to the way it reflects and bends light. It doesn't actually change the color of the paint or coat the paint with a tint. It just changes the way light is reflected and refracted. It gives the appearance of a very deep warm glow.

?? We were not talking to changes in the underlying paint. We have always been talking about appearance of final finish.

 

[imported_Bence]

Interesting is, that the other product, I could observe this phenomenon with, the AG EGP, which has a somewhat similar material composition; aka a poly resin blend. It has only 2% carnauba though... Maybe certain resins are responsible for this effect. One thing is sure: these products are able to shift the refractive spectrum. What causes the darkening with NXT, RMG or whatever? I have no idea.

 

[wannafbody]

Prove it to me.



I've already indicated that you can test this for yourself by putting a coat of a product on a piece of glass and inspect it. I've already done this with several products so I know what you will see.



I'm not talking about pouring a glob of product on the glass and letting it dry, just apply and remove the same as you would apply to a painted surface. #16, #26, NXT Tech Wax, Zaino, Zymol, all are optically clear at the thickness normally left on paint.



Anyone else want to do this test, go ahead and post your results.



For my money, optical clarity is just so much marketing jive.

I don't believe this is a totally valid test. Glass allows light to travel through it and doesn't reflect light back to the eye in the way paint does. Remember that white paint reflects all colors of the spectrum back to the eye. That is why the yellowing affect is probably more pronounced.

 

[the other pc]

Sometimes we don't need science to prove anything to be true or support an opinion. At one time, science had all concluded that the Earth was flat. It turns out it was one man's experience that proved otherwise, not a bunch of scientific tests.….

Sorry to go OT but that never happened.



It was the opposite. It was opinion, legend, "common knowledge" and some people’s belief in "what they saw with their own eyes" that held that the Earth was flat.



Science was well aware that the Earth was round for a long time. The Greek mathematician Eratosthenes came up with a reasonably accurate measurement estimate for the Earth’s circumference almost two thousand years before that Columbus dude tried to make a buck off it.



You may now return to your regularly scheduled argument.





PC.

 

[jfelbab]

I don't believe this is a totally valid test. Glass allows light to travel through it and doesn't reflect light back to the eye in the way paint does. Remember that white paint reflects all colors of the spectrum back to the eye. That is why the yellowing affect is probably more pronounced.

Right, glass will kind of act just like ummm, oh, yeah, just like how clear coat will.



Don't like the results try to discredit the test. :lol



The test, for those of you who have not tried this, yields a perfectly clear result. Any of you who have waxed your windshields know this. Some people just like to argue.



Back on topic with apologies to the OP.



#16 delivers a clear reflective shine that is very durable for a carnauba. In fact, it can outlast some sealants. It imparts only a very slight darkening effect, less thatn #26 but it is more reflective than #26.



If you favor that warm and very deep look which, IMO is very desirable on medium and dark colors, you may like #26. If you want a good reflective wax that doesn't have quite the same darkening effect, #16 is good. I like #16 on lighter colors for this reason.



#16 is by far the most durable of the two. I routinely would see about a third longer life with #16 than with #26.



Looks are subjective and you really need to try both on your car to determine which you like best. As you can see from this thread, everyone has their own opinion of what looks best. We all see colors differently so this should be no big surprise.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Well, now that we've debunked science and redeemed it, discovered that darkening is a form of yellowing, and gone on a completely off-topic excursion for most of the thread, I think we should let this die with jfelbab's detailed description of the differences between #16 and #26, which was the OP's question, anyway.

 

[SilverLexus]

Nothing wrong with a conversation going in new directions. A lot of good discussion lead to new conversation points.

 

[wannafbody]

Right, glass will kind of act just like ummm, oh, yeah, just like how clear coat will.



Don't like the results try to discredit the test. :lol



The test, for those of you who have not tried this, yields a perfectly clear result. Any of you who have waxed your windshields know this. Some people just like to argue.



Back on topic with apologies to the OP.



#16 delivers a clear reflective shine that is very durable for a carnauba. In fact, it can outlast some sealants. It imparts only a very slight darkening effect, less thatn #26 but it is more reflective than #26.



If you favor that warm and very deep look which, IMO is very desirable on medium and dark colors, you may like #26. If you want a good reflective wax that doesn't have quite the same darkening effect, #16 is good. I like #16 on lighter colors for this reason.



#16 is by far the most durable of the two. I routinely would see about a third longer life with #16 than with #26.



Looks are subjective and you really need to try both on your car to determine which you like best. As you can see from this thread, everyone has their own opinion of what looks best. We all see colors differently so this should be no big surprise.

It's a valid test if you put that piece of glass on your paint just like clearcoat

 

[imported_Bence]

...except that a piece of glass is clearer than CC alone (amberish in the jar). I think this is the attribute that can be accentuated with certain well-tuned compositions.

 

[Mike_Phillips]

The only clear wax or paint protectant I can remember seeing in recent years is a product by Blue Coral...



From page two of this thread, wax layering

Here you go... except for the light purple tint the product has, it's pretty clear. It's the clearest product I've ever seen for a car wax.



Blue Coral - Optically Clear? Well... you can see through it!

In fact, it's way more clear than the one everyone is always talking about as being optically clear, I mean this stuff is clear and the other stuff is a solid color, the stuff everyone's always talking about certainly isn't optically clear in the bottle, like 99.9% of the products on the market.

In the 80 plus classes I've taught since moving to California from Oregon to work for Meguiar's, if we can, we alway show how darkening the paint, no matter what the color, or type of paint, is a good thing...



Just check out how we darkened the paint on this Lexus...



Before

After

Besides removing the gross rotary buffer swirls,



(Let me say that again)



Besides removing the swirls...



We increased the clarity of the clear coat and this gives a darkening appearance, at least the black is a deep, rich black, not a hazy gray black like it started out.



We always bring up the topic of "Darkening" and the type of discussions people have about it on forums like this, and then we ask everyone looking at the results if the way we darkened the paint, or in other words, brought out the richness of color is a good thing, or like some on forums position it, a negative thing and it's always unanimous that every loves the rich color created by the application of a quality wax/paint protectant. Always.



We then remind everyone that every time they read some post on a forum where the poster is trying to position darkening as a negative result, to remember who this person is and give them the credit they are due...



Reality is, you want the color of your car's paint to be rich, clear and reflective, a quality wax or paint protectant, (yeah yeah yeah, Zaino's a polish, whatever, it's a paint protectant by any other name), you don't want your LSP to reduce richness of color, clarity or reflectivity. Luckily, most quality paint protecants work well and bring out the richness of color or the clarity of the clear coat.



Thus in the end, it really comes down to,





�Find something you like and use it often�



If you find a product you like, then apparently the results look good in your eyes, if you use it often, then your finish will always look great. It's only when you begin to neglect or abuse the finish that it goes down hill.





Lot of energy in this thread... interesting to read some of the comments by some forum members...



Back to your discussion, just thought you might like to see the clarity of the Blue Coral product as you can see through the bottle because the product is clear. Does anyone know of any other products like this that are optically clear in the bottle?



Wouldn't that tend to be a simple way to tell if a product is optically clear without any expensive testing equipment?





Difference between #16 and #26?

As for the difference between M16 and M26, they are completely different animals, M16 came out in 1951, and is what is referred to as a "Heavy Wax", or a hard wax, just ask anyone that has applied too thick of a coating of this product and then attempted to wipe it off what they discovered?



M26 is a blended wax, not a wax based off of Carnauba as someone posted on this thread. It leaves a very clear finish and I would put it up against any other wax on the same panel of a black car for richness of color, clarity and reflectivity or in other words, DOI, Distinction of Image. Bring me the black car, and your choice of product and a pile of people to witness the results and game on.





p.s.



I detail a few cars on the side, mostly special interest stuff, mostly because I, like many of you, genuinely enjoy taking a diamond in the rough and turning it into a glistening gemstone, and I believe it's vitally important to be able to walk the talk, not just talk the talk, for example, sitting around posting on forums all day.



One thing for sure, my customers, (like everyone else's customers), want the best looking results their money can buy, this includes the paint to have a deep, wet shine, with a clear, glossy, reflective finish that is and rich in color, (darkness).





1954 Corvette - Single-Stage Lacquer - About as black as black gets.

2006 Mosler - Basecoat/Clearcoat



The paint on this super car was really messed up, the first thing I always do is a Test Spot, that is I work a small section with the products and process of my choice all the way up to wax and then inspect, if I can make one small area look good I know I can make the entire finish look good by simply duplicating a successful test spot process over the entire car.



Test Spot on a Mosler

Here, out in natural sunlight, notice how the paint in the test spot area is darker? Anyone here rather have their Mosler look like the paint surrounding the test spot? Yeah... I didn't think so...

Parting shots... (no pun intended)





LSP applied

Darth Vader's Ride...

The wax I used on both of the black cars above, one single stage black lacquer painted over 25 years ago, and the other painted this year using current paint technology is white in color, yet the results are deep, dark and rich in color. Kind of makes all this talk of tinting the paint, and optical clarity an effort in futility because at the end of the day we each make our choices, apply them to the car we're working on and then move on to the next car. If you made a good choice and do the proper prep work upfront, the end results should reflect this. (No pun intended)



Show Car results are truly in the prep work, if the tint of a product, or the claimed "Optical Clarity", or lack thereof, are the factors that make or break your work, then you're so far above the rest of us that you need to start a school for polishing paint.





p.p.s.



While black paint will test your skills to the fullest, there's nothing wrong with red pant either. Here's the results of a purple tinted paint protectant after about 10 hours of prep work, most of which was done using a rotary buffer...

Back to your thread on the difference between M16 and M26...

 

[imported_Bence]

Excellent sum up, as always.



Luckily that "purple tinted paint protectant" is one of the most recognizable LSPs on Earth. #21 leaves a characteristic silvery cleanliness which is readily apparent even on pictures.



Mike, that BC LSP is astonishingly clear. What ingredients are necessary in your opinion to produce such a product; and most importantly, what is your experience with it?



As mentioned earlier, this year's biggest surprise was #26 for me. Its golden glow (or yellowish tint, or you name it) is a terrific addition to certain colors. After experiencing its dark richness, other LSPs can quickly morph into shiny-but-lifeless ones.