Difference between #16 and #26?

[03TLS]

For the last few years I have used either #26 or NXT and was always pleased with how deep my paint would look after #26 was applied. I have recently switched to EX-P topped with Natty's but I definitely would still go back to 26 and I never noticed a yellow tint but maybe b/c my paint is black.

Just a side note I hate having so many LSP I can never decide which one to go with!!!

 

[SilverLexus]

Well, then certainly #16, which is a carnauba, and since Meguiar's doesn't claim to bleach it, must turn your paint blue? Or at least yellow?

It does not have to do with what you see in the tin but what the optical qualities are. #16 is definitely no where near as clear as Z-2 Pro or Z-5 in my experience.



#26 does impart a golden tone to cars. I've seen this effect on everything from silver to green to black to my oyster pearl paint surfaces. You can deny all you want but that doesn't change the fact that carnaubas are not optically clear.



As for Mike Philips quotes, that just further takes away from his credibility. He works for Megs which of course makes #26 so he is not exactly an impartial source here. I'm a bit suspicious of Mike anyway since I have seen him hype repackaged Megs formulas. Megs is lately about profit not performance.



You can test this effect by measuring devices that look at optical clarity.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You can test this effect by measuring devices that look at optical clarity.

You have done this personally? You have been present when it has been done? You have talked to someone who has done this?



EDIT: Can you tell me what the thickness is of #26/#16/Zaino on the car surface after buff off? I think anything is pretty much optically clear at a few molecules thick. Did you know that liquid oxygen is blue? Funny, when I look at air, I don't ever notice it being tinted blue from that 20% blue liquid in it.

 

[truvette]

Carnaubas are not optically clear as many modern sealants like Zaino.

anyway you slice it 26 isn't optically clear.

How can you two make these types of statements when you haven't presented a stitch of evidence that proves what you are saying?



What exactly is meant by "optical clarity"? What is optically clear to you certainly might not be optically clear to the next person. Until you present some sort of definitive evidence with explanations, your statements do not mean anything.

As for Mike Philips quotes, that just further takes away from his credibility. He works for Megs which of course makes #26 so he is not exactly an impartial source here. I'm a bit suspicious of Mike anyway since I have seen him hype repackaged Megs formulas. Megs is lately about profit not performance.

Do you have an axe to grind with Meguiar's? It seems like everytime someone starts a post asking about their products, you take issue to it by knocking Meguiar's and offering a suggestion to another product. :think:



I have quite a bit of confidence in Mike Phillips' skills both as a detailer and a company representative. He makes his points based on years of experience that few of us here can even come close to matching. It is best to think about how much time he has spent with automotive paint and the number of surface evaluations he has done before you jump to conclusions about his integrity.



I've had great success with Meguiar's, both with the products and the company. I don't understand how you can say that they are concerned with profit over performance when they have some of the best products, along with superior service, in the industry.

You can test this effect by measuring devices that look at optical clarity.

What is this device? Why haven't more people heard of it here on Autopia?







I'm not meaning to get on anyone's case here, but if you're going to make such baseless, arbitrary statements, then please back it up with evidence to your argument.

 

[SilverLexus]

I know some manufacturers and chemists that have testing devices for gloss measurement and optical clarity. Unfortunately the gear is expensive which is why no one outside the biz side has it. And this is why Mike has not been presented with the results of Megs products in this area.



Based on numerous conversations with manufacturers and chemists, it's widespread knowledge that carnauba is not optically clear.

 

[Scottwax]

In my experience, the #26 can add a nice, golden glow to the paint which is extremely beneficial on certain flatter shades. It produces tremendous richness, and the colors come alive. One of my biggest faves.

Especially on reds!



I use #16 a lot more simply because of the durability.

 

[Scottwax]

As for Mike Philips quotes, that just further takes away from his credibility. He works for Megs which of course makes #26 so he is not exactly an impartial source here.

Of course he is biased towards Meguiars products, that is his area of expertise. Just like Sal Zaino is biased towards Zaino and Everett Glass is biased towards Clearkote.



As far as optical clarity goes, if you like that look (and many do), great. There are those of us who prefer the slight distortion of carnaubas because it gives a look of added depth. Plenty of products for both tastes and it doesn't mean one side is right and the other side is wrong.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I know some manufacturers and chemists that have testing devices for gloss measurement and optical clarity. Unfortunately the gear is expensive which is why no one outside the biz side has it. And this is why Mike has not been presented with the results of Megs products in this area.



Based on numerous conversations with manufacturers and chemists, it's widespread knowledge that carnauba is not optically clear.

So can you tell us who has measured this? Can you quote or point to some published paper or report that delineates these results or even a test method? It's fine if these are esoteric tests that are expensive to conduct, but if it's "widespread knowledge" then I should be able to find/see something about it, which I don't.

 

[Dan]

Great test, keep layering it on some glass, see if it magically changes colors

 

[Spilchy]

So can you tell us who has measured this? Can you quote or point to some published paper or report that delineates these results or even a test method? It's fine if these are esoteric tests that are expensive to conduct, but if it's "widespread knowledge" then I should be able to find/see something about it, which I don't.

C'mon Setec, don't you have a densitometer? We've all got one in our tool boxes.

 

[wannafbody]

the best way to check is to use a white hood and apply #26 to a section, nothing on another section and a sealant on the third. I've even seen the yellowing effect of 845 on white.

 

[TigerMike]

Well, then certainly #16, which is a carnauba, and since Meguiar's doesn't claim to bleach it, must turn your paint blue? Or at least yellow?

Did you even bother to read my post? Again, it has NOTHING to do with the final color of the product, but the actual wax used in the formula. We're not talking about the yellow wax changing paint from whatever color to a Corvette yellow tone. It is a subtle tint, but it is there. I know I wasn't imagining that my paint took a very different look after #26 was gone and a more optically pure product applied. Whether MP says it happens or not is irrelevant to me, because I have experienced the effect myself, and apparently several others have as well. I would expect he would deny anything like this about his products, after all that's his job. Job security. Again, why does Souveran go to the trouble to bleach their caranuba white? I'm not talking about the final color of the product in the can, but rather the color and clarity of the actual wax that will lay on the surface. There must be a reason, or why bother?



I think you are taking this as a bash against #26. It's not, and nothing personal. It's an observed effect from several users of the product.



Here are two kinds of caranuba. It seems to me that having wax like the yellow would certainly have a tinting effect.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

Did you even bother to read my post? Again, it has NOTHING to do with the final color of the product, but the actual wax used in the formula. We're not talking about the yellow wax changing paint from whatever color to a Corvette yellow tone. It is a subtle tint, but it is there. I know I wasn't imagining that my paint took a very different look after #26 was gone and a more optically pure product applied. Whether MP says it happens or not is irrelevant to me, because I have experienced the effect myself, and apparently several others have as well. I would expect he would deny anything like this about his products, after all that's his job. Job security. Again, why does Souveran go to the trouble to bleach their caranuba white? I'm not talking about the final color of the product in the can, but rather the color and clarity of the actual wax that will lay on the surface. There must be a reason, or why bother?



I think you are taking this as a bash against #26. It's not, and nothing personal. It's an observed effect from several users of the product.



Here are two kinds of caranuba. It seems to me that having wax like the yellow would certainly have a tinting effect.

I did read your post. You say above at the beginning that it has nothing to do with the color of the product, but then you say at the end that having a yellow wax would have a tinting effect. So if Souveran "bleaches" their carnauba (they say they create their "Ivory" carnauba through extra refining), then don't ALL carnaubas, other than Souveran, tint your paint yellow? Several members in the past have questioned whether "ivory" carnauba actually exists...since you ask why does Souveran bother, I ask, so they can charge $80 a jar? If it has nothing to do with the color of the wax in the jar, why does it have to do with the color of the wax shavings in the picture?



You and SilverLexus are saying two different things (as well as saying some of the same things). Since the color of the wax in the jar is irrelevant (and I have paste wax that is blue:#16, yellow: #26, Max Wax, white: Natty's, 476S, pink: FK Pink Wax), shouldn't every paste wax using "No. 1 yellow carnauba wax is the only wax found in Pinnacle Souveran" that hasn't been through the extra refining step(s) tint your paint yellow? I'm sure the lesser grades of carnauba are used for coating M&M's, etc. (if there really is any grade other than No. 1). Is the implication that Meguiar's uses some crappy grade of carnauba in #26 that they don't use in any other wax? The only other yellowing story in this thread has been attributed to 845. I just don't understand what is so special about #26 that causes the problem, if the problem is solved by the very special Souveran...what about all the products in between?



And if all this optical clarity has been tested and documented, why is it that no one can reveal who has tested it, how it was tested, and what the results were?

 

[jfelbab]

...As for Mike Philips quotes, that just further takes away from his credibility. He works for Megs which of course makes #26 so he is not exactly an impartial source here. I'm a bit suspicious of Mike anyway since I have seen him hype repackaged Megs formulas. Megs is lately about profit not performance...

Ridiculous! Talk about losing credibility. You just lost any you may have had.



Note to self: put SilverLexus on my "do not bother reading" list. :laugh:



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I've used #26 for years and find it 'darkens" the paint slightly. Not yellow, but darken. You can see this on medium color cars quite easily. Especially apparent on red. It has more to do with the way it reflects light than any imagined coloring left by the wax.



Nearly all wax and sealants, at the thickness of the coating left on a painted surface, is optically clear. Don't think so? Put a coat on your window and prove it to yourself.

 

[SilverLexus]

I've used #26 for years and find it 'darkens" the paint slightly.

So we are in agreement here. Seems like Setec (Mike) is the only one questioning this.

 

[SilverLexus]

Nearly all wax and sealants, at the thickness of the coating left on a painted surface, is optically clear.

This is simply not true Jim. Different sealants have different optical qualities. Some are more clear than others.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

So we are in agreement here. Seems like Setec (Mike) is the only one questioning this.

You didn't say darkening, you said yellowing...that's a big difference. I didn't question darkening, I questioned yellowing.

 

[SilverLexus]

It does yellow in my experience. I could tell from the osyter paint as I mentioned earlier. I also tested on several friend's pure silver cars.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

It does yellow in my experience. I could tell from the osyter paint as I mentioned earlier. I also tested on several friend's pure silver cars.

Ok, so now we're back to your experience/opinion, rather than any scientific optical clarity testing or "general acceptance". Darkening or yellowing, it sounds to me like what we are talking about is a subjective change in the refractive index of the paint, which causes a spectrum shift when viewed from certain angles. That's a lot more scientific than some Zaino or Pinnacle marketing hyperbole about "optical clarity", which no one here has given any definition of or testing or test methods as it applies to anything approaching the "thickness" of an LSP coating.

 

[SilverLexus]

Mike,



I don't quite know why you are flogging this so vigorously but now you say the carnauba is darkening the paint.



Doesn't this support what I am saying about optical clarity with exception of the color issue?



Now we know #26 is yellow carnauba based. Why would the darkening be anything but a shade of yellow?



I'm not sure I follow the logic here.



As for optical clarity I know that is something that Sal tests. Perhaps I can find out more about how that is done and see if I can get permission to share the findings.