Did this scratch go through the primer? *High Res Pics Inside*

C

Cytomax

New member
EDIT: If this is the first time you are reading this just skip to the last few posts and you can check out the progress out at Picasa Web Albums - Eduardo - Scratches on Car





















Hello all i just got a porter cable and am dying to use it on my car but before i do i want to fix a few nasty scratches on my car first.



Picasa Web Albums - Eduardo - Scratches on Car



I have 5 small deep scratches on the passenger side of my car and i think 3 of the 5 are rusting. I THINK the fourth scratch from the left (the biggest one) has gone through the paint and through a white layer (im assuming the primer) and is in a metal layer cuz its rusting..



I have already read http://autopia.org/forum/guide-detailing/80224-paint-clinic.html and i already have the EXACT paint from the dealership to touch it up but i am basically trying to decide



1) Do i need to add primer to those 3 scratches before i paint over them?



2) If i do need primer where do i buy it from?



BTW if you need more pics or more high res pics i can upload them ... the pics you see are compressed from the original but if you need them let me know



Thanks in Advance

Eddie
 
Cytomax- High Res pics is right! *VERY* good job of showing the damage :xyxthumbs





Cytomax said:
1) Do i need to add primer to those 3 scratches before i paint over them?



2) If i do need primer where do i buy it from?
Click to expand...



Unfortunately you need not just primer, but also some minor rust remediation. That brownish stuff that's most visible in the right-most chip/scratch is rust. You need to remove it as best you can abrasively/mechanically (check out the fiberglass filament "rust eraser"-type pens e.g., Griot's pn 50303A "spot sanding tool") then treat the clean bare metal with a rust converter/metal prep product (not sure what to recommend as my fave 3M Rust Avenger is off the market :nixweiss ).



*Then* apply the primer if you want, though I generally do OK using the rust converter as a primer. Check out places like Eastwood Company: Auto Tools, Body Repair, Classic Car Restoration, House of Kolor Paint, Powder Coating and/or search on "rust converter".



You can get primer at autobody/paint supply places, dealership body shops, and online vendors like PaintScratch Touch-Up Paint (rs), Spray Cans, Spray Paint, Paint Pens, Car Paint, Automotive Paint , who might also have a rust converter.
 
Thank you for the speedy reply..



I checked eastwood.com but didnt really find anything that i thought i would use but then again i dont really know what im looking for



HOWEVER



I did check https://www.paintscratch.com/cgi-bin/storefront.cgi

and noticed they have both a



Primer

PaintScratch 1 oz. Primer Bottle



and a



Rust Converter

PaintScratch 4 oz. Rust Converter



As of right now im kinda scared of the rust converter ... it talks about toxic fumes and youll die if you dont wear some super mask etc...



I may just try to sand off the rust and apply the primer but please people if you have any other suggestions i would love to hear them... i like to try to know as much as possible before doing this!



Thanks in Advance

Eddie
 
Cytomax- If you don't use the converter it won't turn out well (at least not long-term). Don't worry about the fumes; I've quite health-conscious and have used such products both with/without respirators. For what you're doing you won't need the respirator, but if you want to play it safe 3M makes a fairly cheap disposable one you can buy at autobody/paint supply places. But you can just hold your breath for the few seconds it'll take to apply the stuff to such a small area (heh heh, those few seconds really will make all the difference, rust is very, very hard to kill without the right products).



I strongly encourage you to just get the stuff from PaintScratch and do the job right...you'll be glad you did it that way ;)



I also strongly recommend that you use small artist's brushes to do this work. The home-brew methods (match sticks/etc.) and the disposable brushes on the market don't work *NEARLY* as well as a good brush. I like really tiny ones, like sizes 10/0 and 20/0 ("ten-oh" and "twenty-oh"). Do a google on "micromark", their catalog has all kinds of great stuff including small brushes.



Once you get the paint on there, you might want to level it with the Langka system or wetsanding. I generally recommend the Langka as wetsanding can open a can of worms. Even if you don't level the repair at all, it'll sure beat having things looking like they do now, and to be honest I don't always level touchups, even on my good cars.



Good luck with this, hope things turn out well.
 
I think i found the pen you are looking for



This is the website from the product manufacturer

3M CHIM Partner Support Site : 3M Spot Sanding Pen 03181ES



This is website is selling it for $94

3M(TM) Spot Sanding Pen 03181ES



This website is selling it for $100

3M 03181ES Spot Sanding Pen



For some reason they are only sold in 24 packs and that is why they are so expensive.

It is a shame they dont sell them individually so i decided to look for other Spot Sanding Pens and this is what i found



Wurth Red Label for $8.29

Wurth Red Label :: Machining :: Abrasives :: Sanding Pens :: Spot Sanding Pen



PrepPen for $6.00

PrepPen Adjustable Sanding Pen



K Tool International 70550 Sanding Pen for $6.14

K Tool International 70550 Sanding Pen - KTI70550



To be dead honest i think they are all the same thing because all the pictures look the same.



Thanks again for your replies i really appreciate it

Eddie
 
@ Accumulator at first i didnt notice the amount of post you have made so i just took what you said with a grain of salt as i do all advice and asked for more opinions... BUT after seeing how many posts you've made that is reason enough to believe anything you tell me (for better or worse). I hope i was able to help you little bit (at least do some grunt work) by collecting all the different sanding pens together and showing you what i had found since you mentioned that you didnt have anymore 3M Spot Sanding Pens.



Questions

#1) What is the white layer between the paint and the rust.. is that the primer?



#2) The scratches that dont have rust but you see all those white lines .. will those buff out with my porter cable or should i put some touch up paint on that WITHOUT using rust converter or primer?



So as of right now this is what i am going to do with the rusty areas...



1) Pick any of the 3 Spot Sanding Pens and use that to derust my scratch. (Im hoping these pens are strong because i just dont think fiberglass strands are all that abrasive enough to cut rust but only one way to find out)



2) Use RED SABLE PAINT BRUSH (#10/0, ROUND) from

Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists

to apply the Rust converter from

PaintScratch 4 oz. Rust Converter



3) Use another RED SABLE PAINT BRUSH (#10/0, ROUND) to fill in the chip with the touch up paint i got from the dealership by the method described



Im going to do steps 2 and 3 following this guide but the only thing im changing is going to use a brush instead of a toothpick http://autopia.org/forum/guide-detailing/80224-paint-clinic.html



I hope these are the correct steps to follow

Again any input is greatly appreciated

Eddie
 
Cytomax- heh heh, well...just because I have a zillion posts that doesn't mean I'm a reliable source of info :D But I will say that I've been touching up paint chips since the mid-'70s so I know a bit about this ;)



It's not the pens I can't find, it's 3M's Rust Avenger converter, which is still my all-time favorite product of this type.



Of the two pens I'd probably get the one that MicroMark sells (looks like the first one to IMO) and I'd get refills for the filaments while you're ordering. I go through the filaments fast, so having refills or extra pens is a good idea. Last time I checked MicroMark *did* have these as well as the smaller pens.



The pens you linked to are pretty big. I've found that you need to trim their filaments (with a razor blade) to a very sharp point and be very careful not to damage the surrounding paint. I'd *still* get one of the smaller pens too (from Griot's and/or MicroMark); I use the smaller ones for about 90% of my touchups as I'd rather go over the area a few times with a more controllable sanding medium and/or use it after the larger pen to do the outer edge of the chip with a bit more control.



The pens *will* remove the rust (especially if you use the big one first) and the converter will take care of what's (microscopically) left.



*I* have come to prefer the smaller 20/0 brush, you might want to order one of those too.



One area where I differ from David B's advice is that I always use clear over touchups (well, over touchups on clearcoated panels). I fill the chip *almost* all the way up to the level of the surrounding paint with the colorcoat and let it dry. Then I fill the chip just a little *over* the level of the surrounding paint with the clear.



If you decide to level the paint (with Lankga and/or wetsanding) at some point, I think it'll work out better with the clear on there. And my touchups always look a little better with the clear anyhow.



It's sorta like when ordering the brush from MicroMark (where IMO you might as well get a smaller brush and the rust pens there too)- while you're ordering from PaintScratch you can pick up a little bottle of clear for next to nothing (if you can't get it at the dealer where you got your touchup paint).



For that matter (heh heh, it's easy for me to spend your money ;) ), I wouldn't be surprised if the PaintScratch touchup paint matched better than the dealership stuff. IME it's about a 50/50 bet which one will be better.



But hey, it's not like it'll turn out lousy if you don't do the clear, I'd just rather mention my $0.02 for your consideration so you have more info upon which to base your decision.



#1) What is the white layer between the paint and the rust.. is that the primer?
Click to expand...



Yep.



#2) The scratches that dont have rust but you see all those white lines .. will those buff out with my porter cable or should i put some touch up paint on that WITHOUT using rust converter or primer?
Click to expand...



I suspect you'll have to apply the touchup paint.
 
Its a shame i couldnt find the tiny Spot Sanding Pen at micromark.com but i was able to find what seems like a big spot sanding pen at griotsgarage.com

Spot Sanding Tool - Detailing Tools - Tools - Griot's Garage



The pen from griotsgarage doesnt seem small but is this the small spot sanding pen you were talking about?



If this isn't the small spot sanding pen you were talking about then could you guide me as to the one you use 90% of the time please?



As for the paint brushes i was actually already looking at the #20/0 but didn't know which one to pick. Seeing as how you are much more knowledgeable than me i was wondering if you could tell me which one you would pick.



Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists



Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists



Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists



Tools and Supplies for Building Scale Models | Micro-Mark: The Small Tool Specialists



I have been looking for your 3M Rust Avenger but have not been successful... i did however find a website that gave a list of a ton of alternatives..

ToolGirl: 3M Rust Avenger Discontinued - Just shoot me



As of right now i am going to buy



1) PaintScratch 4 oz. Rust Converter



2) PaintScratch 2 oz. Clearcoat Bottle



3) 3 Paint Brushes that are size 20/0 but i need Accumulator to let me know which one



4) 1 Spot Sanding Pen but i need Accumulator to let me know which one



If there is anything else please let me know...

Again thank you Accumulator for helping me out

Eddie
 
Cytomax- That pen from Griot's is the "small" one.



See if these part numbers work at MicroMark- pn #14259 (large rust pen); pn #14344 (refill); pn #81850 (small rust pen); pn #82027 (refill).



Or you can just get the 3M/Wurth big one and the Griot's small one...but I like being able to buy refills.



For the paint brushes, I'd get these two: pn 81205 10/0 filbert and pn 81208 round ('m pretty sure that's what mine are, but I bought 'em a *long* time ago..). The larger 10/0 one *sometimes* works better with metallics because it holds more paint.



A thought occurs about the clear- I'm assuming your touchup paint is *lacquer* and not enamel; the clear is lacquer and the two don't play nice together.



As you noted (the linked webpage is good!), there are a lot of rust converters...I'm still glad I stocked up on the 3M stuff though ;)



You might want to buy a bottle of Langka Blob Eliminator, I find it handy stuff to have on hand. And get some kind of solvent like PrepSol (don't just use rubbing alcohol). Griot's sells stuff called (uhm, IIRC) Paint Prep that oughta work OK.



So.. get the stuff, read up and develop a plan, and remember that these touchups very seldom turn out as nicely as one would like. Keep your expectations realistic and take some comfort in knowing that you did everything possible to make things right.



Heh heh, you can always wipe off your touchups with the Langka and try again ;)
 
Im just posting this to sum everything up that has happened and make it easier for people with the same problem to buy everything i did and not have to bother Accumulator again. Accumulator was a God send and has definitely carried me the whole way thus far. When im done i will post pictures up of the finished product (only if it looks good lol).



1) I searched micromark.com for some sort of Preparation Solvent but i didnt find very much... for some reason i cant find much on that site and I dont know why... i was hoping you could find a solvent on that site that you would recommend or i also read that most local car shops will have some sort of Preparation Solvent...



2) MINI BRUSH WITH FIBERGLASS BRISTLES



3) FIBERGLASS BRUSH REFILLS (PKG. OF 2)



4) ULTRA MICRO FIBERGLASS BRUSH



5) ULTRA MICRO FIBERGLASS REFILLS (PKG. OF 12)



6) #20/0 SHARP POINT ROUND PAINT BRUSH



7) 4 oz. Rust Converter



8) I already bought the paint but if you didn't you can buy it here @ PaintScratch



9) I will wet sand using 2000 grit sand paper to smooth out the paint once its filled



10) Buff the car using my porter cable



I will try this out and see how it goes.. hopefully it come out acceptable..

Thanks again Accumulator you are the man!

Eddie
 
Cytomax- Heh heh, don't thank me yet...wait and see how it turns out ;)



Looks like you're pretty well set. The only change I'd make is to get some Langka Blob Eliminator and use that instead of wetsanding. Wetsanding can open a can of worms unless you're experienced at serious paint correction.



If you *do* wetsand, I'd get Meguiar's/Nikken/Mirka paper (and not something else!!). I've removed 2K grit Meguiar's Sanding Block scratches from factory Audi clear (and did it by hand :eek: ) so it *can* be done, but I can assure you it's no picnic. Last few times I touched up chips on my S8 I just left the blobs...leveling it properly was something I just didn't want to go through (at least then, might do it someday).



With the Lankga, the "leveling" won't turn out 100% the way it *can* (not "will" but "can" ;) ), but the worst that'll happen is that you'll take off all your touchup paint. At least give it a thought...that little bottle of Langka will last a *long* time and it's handy to have around.



OK, I'll quit beating you over the head about the Langka now...hope things turn out well. But remember that bit about realistic expectations...my metallic paint touchups seldom turn out *nearly* as well as I'd like; for some reason my one painter does it a zillion times better than I do, but I guess that's what decades of experience will do for you.
 
Well if anyone is interested here is my progress after Day 1

Picasa Web Albums - Eduardo - Scratches on Car

... i am now going to start the painting process....

I would like to note that i have 5 scratches going from left to right...

4 of the 5 scratches are deep into the primer and are the ones in which i painted the rust converter onto



#1 and #4 seem to have developed brown stuff which im assuming is the rust converter

#2 and #5 seem to have only a spec of brown on them even though i painted the same amount on them

im assuming that #2 and #5 only had a small area that actually was rusting and therefore that is the are that turned brown...



Well just updating everyone..

Thanks again Accumulator for your help

Eddie
 
cytomax- Yeah, I'd do one more coat of colorcoat too.



Did you ever get the Lanka? If so you might use that to level things a bit after the last colorcoat. Otherwise I think I'd leave it alone and add clear. This is a tough call and maybe Jeremy1026's idea of polishing is what you should do instead :nixweiss Sometimes the leveling efforts mess with the touchup (especially the metallic effect) so you might have to choose which flaw (smoothness vs. metallic) bothers you less. If I knew the answer to this one my touchups might look more like those my painter does ;)



Heh heh, I hope things turn out well. FWIW I've been doing a terrible scrape/scratch on the M3 and I didn't level things enough before I started and/or level the basecoat properly so it's looking mighty crappy (guess I'll have my painter redo it some day). Shoulda done it more along the lines of what I tell others to do but I just wanted to do *something* quickly :o With any luck the "student" (you) will get better results than the "teacher" (me) this time around :D
 
Picasa Web Albums - Eduardo - Scratches on Car



Thank you Jeremy1026 and Accumulator for the input...

@ Accumulator: I really appreciate all the help you have given me from the start and i really hate to deviate from what you are telling me but i really wanted to try the wetsanding because i already have 1000 , 1500, and 2000 on hand and would like to try it out before i dish out $29.95 + shipping for the Langka system...



@ Jeremy1026 and Accumulator: i ended up wetsanding it VERY softly with 1000 (i know i shoulda used the 1500 or 2000 but hey i gotta make some mistakes right.. lol) and i am now ready to give it the 3rd coat. From the pics you can tell that in the area that i sanded there are some dark gray areas and some light gray. I am assuming the light gray is the area thick enough to be sanded while the dark gray areas are pits in the paint which were too low to be sanded... i think this confirms the need for 1 more coat at least...



BTW the way i sanded was...

Soak the Sand Paper for 1 night in water...

Cut the Sand paper into 1/8" thick X 4.5" long strands and i used my finger as the sanding board.. at first i wasnt very accurate but after a while it just felt natural.....

I lathered the area with some car shampoo and very light went over it from tail of the car to the hood of the car and never in a circle..



Well i think its looking better just 1 or 2 more coats and im there.. ready for the polish..



Thanks for any input



Eddie





Tell me what you guys think
 
Cytomax- Sounds like you're on your way :D



Hope the 2K scratches aren't too tough to polish out if/after you use that to level the final repair.
 
Thank for the reply..

I *hope* the scratches arent that bad but i also have a 1500 and a 2000 grit for when im finished...along with a the whole Sonus SFX 1 SFX2 and SFX 3 kit ... so we will see what happens.. either i run out of paint lol or i fix the car...

Im off to add that third coat...

Eddie
 
Picasa Web Albums - Eduardo - Scratches on Car



Well theres good news and bad news....

The good news is im almost finished... i ran up the grits to 2000... washed the car.. clayed the car... and washed the car again...



The bad news i think i sanded just a bit too much in a certain area and it was because i started with the 1000 and i actually started to sand in the wrong place...



More good news is i feel ive really learned a lot from this and as long as i didint use the 1K sand paper to start off with i think this would of turned out really well... oh well... live and learn...



Well here are some updated photos before i start with the Sonus SFX-1 Fast Action Restoration Polish....



Question..

im assuming i use Sonus SFX-1 JUST for the single panel im working on... i then go ahead and use Sonus SFX-2 for the entire car.. please correct me if im wrong....



Is there any recommended speed setting for this .. im going to use the Porter Cable 7424

Thanks in Advance

Eddie
 
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