DACP Ineffective

T

thinksnow

Supernintendo Chalmers
(for me)



Last night, I used DACP for the first time with the PC and a CMA yellow pad. Applied a 4" line of product directly to the paint and worked until nearly dry. I have the 5" pictures but will post those this weekend when I can get the 5' pictures.



Problem: DACP didn't appear to work at all. I realize that *I* did something wrong, but what?



Symptoms: The pad loaded up VERY quickly, even though I was using very little product and had prepped the pad with a spritz of water. The paint was shinier, yet lost none of the swirls and scratches.



My thoughts: The Honda had PwC, EX x 5, PwC, EX x 3 and a couple of monthly S100 applications since its last true Dawn wash. Is Poorboys simply too durable for a single Dawn wash--perhaps instead of scratch and swirl removal, the pad was loading up on old EX?



Your thoughts:
 
Here are some points to consider:



DACP needs to be worked until completely dry, in fact work it until there is just the slightest haze of powder on the paint.



When you start out with a fresh squirt, bear down fairly hard on the buffer so that you pad is compressed to about 1/3 to 1/2 of its original thickness. Go over the area twice like that then ease up on the pressure, so that when you start seeing the "dry dust" just the weight of the polisher is on the pad.



Another thought, is that your pad might not be agressive enough - Meg's Burgundy or CMS orange Power Pad might be in order.



A third thought, is that you might need to do the DACP twice or 3 times. What color was the paint? White is very hard as the whiteness comes from titanium oxide (7 on MOHS hardness scale, with talcum a 1 and diamond a 10.)



On occasion I have applied too much DACP and noticed the pad loaded up too. On a virgin pad, I generally spritz lightly with water then put an X on the pad, about 2/3 of side to side diameter and maybe 1/4 inch wide. Rub it on the paint with the motor off to spread it all over the work area and the pad. Then work it until dry and virtually dustless. Subsequent applications of product on the pad are just a circle, at half diameter and about 1/8 to 3/16 wide. no power smear as before then hit the juice,



Hope this helps.
 
This is helpful--I had thought the CMA yellow had more cut than the orange pad. I will give that a shot this weekend. You are suggesting more DACP than I was using so using too much wasn't a problem--perhaps it was old product being siphoned off the car.



The paint is 16 year-old maroon Honda paint. Judging from the tremendous number of swirls, I'm thinking that it is hard paint (none have really ever been removed in either my newbie days or my newbie sr. days).



On the pass right before the DACP turned to dust, as I ran the PC over a section, it would turn clear and then reappear. T'would be interesting if anyone else experienced this.
 
From the way I read you post I was thinking you may have applied too much DACP, but then again, I may be wrong. I just tend to use it sparingly. Also, about every 3-4 squirts I shake the bottle again after a thorough shaking before starting.



I've seen the "reappearing" you described and this is normal. Just when the product is nearly dry (there is a damp build up in the pad that flash dries when you move the pad away). Working until it is totally dry is best because the DACP has completely broken down and it is burnishing the paint, rather than removing it. Another thing I do is as the DACP breaks down, I speed up the polisher. I start at 3.5-4 and finish off at 6



BTW, after I DACP, I always finish off with FP at speed 6
 
I have had problems with Meg polishes when water got involved (maybe something about oil & water??), such as when it would drip from under molding. I think you should try again, but this time use a QD instead of plain water, and not very much of that.



EDIT: FWIW, I run the PC at 5 + when using DACP of any of the other polishes, they seem to wok better at the higher speeds.
 
thinksnow said:
This is helpful--I had thought the CMA yellow had more cut than the orange pad. I will give that a shot this weekend. You are suggesting more DACP than I was using so using too much wasn't a problem--perhaps it was old product being siphoned off the car.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, the orange pad is only as strong as or slightly less strong than the yellow pad. The Meguiar's maroon pad is broadly equivalent to the CMA yellow. Your next step up would be wool or a stronger product. Maybe try a Fine Cut product because it stays in grade longer.



It's possible that the product you had on the paint was giving some difficulty. When you're polishing you don't really spread that much product around, so if you have wax or sealant on there in reasonable amounts it might detract from the polishing power a bit and cause the pad to load up.



Make sure you spend enough time working it. I usually spend 3-5 minutes on a section roughly 2x2 or 2x3 at speeds 4-5.5 most of the time. You kind of have to use some judgement and some trial and error when deciding how much product to use at first. Common sense says that you can't use it too sparingly like a wax, or you're not going to have enough product to work with and it'll get exhausted too fast (or dry out), and you can't use too much, as you know too.



HTH, good luck!
 
I sometimes find DACP to break down too quickly before the abrasives start cutting. If this is the case, reduce the speed and use a harsher pad.
 
If I understand correctly, the polishes with diminishing abrasives work very well with soft clearcoats because they remove swirls while still at maximum abrasiveness, then turn into mild polishes at the end to remove their own hazing. Soft paints respond well to this type of product.



But what about hard paints (like white)? It seems to me possible that a diminishing abrasive could break down into a mild abrasive too soon, thus accomplishing nothing. For a case like that, wouldn't a polish like Megs #2 work better? Wouldn't it would retain maximum abrasiveness the entire time you're working it in, thus maximizing the possibility that significant swirling gets removed?
 
A number of people have been having trouble with marring that they can't remove with DACP/PC/cutting pad. Stevet has PM'ed me about this recently (Steve- you're mailbox is full :D ). Note that the following is just my $0.02 and is only based on *MY* experiences (yep, that's a disclaimer).



The common thought seems to be to either switch to a wool pad or to a FCRC. Neither is gonna make a HUGE difference. The wool pad REALLY isn't all that much more aggressive than the cutting pads, and 3M's PI-II/III (pns 39002/05933) aren't much, if any stronger than the DACP. *I* found that the above RCs with a wool pad were NOT enough to truly remove marring from hard b/c paint, let alone ss white. They might work better if worked longer, but I've worked them for (literally) hours on end with so-so results.



The #2 fine cut MIGHT be a solution, but *I* like it better on single stage. It contains STRONG chemical cleaners that work well on ss paint (oxidation, etc.), so be careful about leaving it on the finish and DON'T let it get all over everything. The abrasives in #2 aren't optimal for b/c paint, but yes, it should work OK if you follow up with another, milder product. But it's not all THAT strong either. BTW, yes, the directions say to only use #2 with a rotary, but that's a fairly recent change...the stuff's been around forever and it used to be for "hand or machine use". But that was back in the day when all there was was ss paint. BUT, using it with a PC or by hand, on b/c really isn't the BEST thing to do.



Other ideas include using a MEDIUM cut RC from 3M or something like Meg's Diamond Cut or #84. But the BEST solution is to stick with milder products and use a rotary. Yes, rotaries can cause damage, but so can the PC, especially when you start using harsh products.
 
Hmm, I was planning on using 1z Ultra if I ran into a situation where DACP didn't do the job. How does this compare to products discussed above?
 
Accumulator,



Sorry about that, didn't realize my mailbox was full. :o



Are you saying that DACP and a cutting pad is as high as you can go with a PC safely?



I was thinking the next step would be something like 3M Perfect it-II FCRC but if it's not much stronger than DACP no sense in doing it.



I talked to Megs customer service yesterday about #2 Fine Cut. I was told it is stronger than DACP and to not use it with a PC. The PC can't break down the abrasives in it.
 
Other people use VERY aggressive products by PC (or even by hand) and like their results, but *I* don't go stronger than 1Z Ultra (yes, it *seems* stronger than the other products under discussion). I dunno why I didn't mention it before, the 1Z polishes are my favorites.



*I* have found that if the PC won't get the job done with Ultra, *I* am better off using a rotary. Trying to do "rotary work" with a PC just doesn't work well *for me*. But the Ultra works pretty well by hand/PC. Just gotta follow up with something milder.



Again, the #2 WILL work by PC/hand, you just have to follow up with a milder product. I dunno about what the rep said, in the past they've been wrong a LOT and again, it used to be sold FOR HAND USE. *I* don't trust advice from anyone at Meguiar's except Mike Phillips.
 
Accumulator said:
Again, the #2 WILL work by PC/hand, you just have to follow up with a milder product. I dunno about what the rep said, in the past they've been wrong a LOT and again, it used to be sold FOR HAND USE. *I* don't trust advice from anyone at Meguiar's except Mike Phillips.
Click to expand...



#2 Fine-Cut Cleaner used to be recommended for use by hand at one time. That was before clear coats became the norm.



The reason why is #1 Medium Cut Cleaner, #2 Fine Cut Cleaner, and #4 Heavy Cut Cleaner use a diminishing abrasive developed and chosen for traditional single-stage paints. On these typically softer paints, these formulas worked well by hand or machine.



With the introduction of clear coat paints, because of their hardness and difference in structure, when used by hand, these traditional paint cleaners could and would scratch and mar the surface.



Ouch!



I remember the label changes and they were brought about by feedback from the market. Now these same products, when used with a rotary buffer work just fine. It is the direct drive rotating action the rotary buffer offers that effectively breaks these diminishing abrasives down and allow them to remove defects with out scouring the surface.



As far as using them with a PC goes, I wouldn’t use them, or recommend their use, on clear coat finishes. If your working on an older single stage finish, then you can probably get away with #2 using a PC and a polishing pad on the higher settings. But probably not #1 or #4.



I haven’t tried this because whenever #83 DACP doesn’t work with either the PC or a Rotary, I substitute #84 Compound Power Cleaner with the rotary.



Three good products for working on clear coats by hand are Medallion Premium Paint Cleaner, Clear Coat Body Scrub, or ScratchX.



MPPC and CCBS can be used with a PC, but the heat generated by the PC will tend to make the ScratchX gummy, so I wouldn’t recommend it.



I have tried the ScratchX using both a rotary and the PC in an effort to sort of bubba-proof them and while it worked good with the rotary, (removed a scratch from a corvette hood after wet-sanding with #2500 grit), #84 was faster. ScratchX works, but it does become gummy and thus difficult to remove.



If I were working on the above Honda, I would probably try the MPPC with a foam polishing pad and if that didn’t work, then try a rotary buffer.





thinksnow - you mention your paint is maroon, but are you pulling color? or is it a clear coat over a maroon base coat?



Mike
 
It takes a big man to post things this embarrassing but I will do it for you, Mikey P. As you can see, the failure is nothing short of miserable. I have clearcoat and there is never any color on the pads. This is after giving up my efforts and topping the DACP/FP combo with EX. The ultra-swirling evident in the pictures is only in the center of the hood (I can only assume engine heat) and both sides are swirl-free with paint pitting from 16 years of use. Everything shines up well. If sunlight and direct sunlight is not present and I can fight you off to a distance of 5 feet or more, the car looks great. It looks like I will have to try some new pads from Megs. The yellow CMA had this result and from 4DSC's post and other sources, it appears the orange pad won't further my cause. I still love it for FP and non-abrasive cleaner application. Everyone gets my genuine thanks thus far for helping me with this ugly dilemma :xyxthumbs



12896my_failure-med.jpg
 
Mike Phillips- Thanks for expanding on the "inappropriate" uses of #2. I'd gone into more/better detail about this on some other threads; it seems a lot of people are using #2 on b/c, and not with rotaries, so I've quit saying it (categorically) shouldn't be done. Or at least I'm not being that adamant about it.



Your reply was much better than mine and I ougtha watch the "out of the box" suggestions...Think I'll go back to saying you shouldn't mis-apply the older Mirror Glaze Products.



So many people are trying to do "rotary work" with PCs that it gets tempting to suggest things that are best left alone :o
 
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