Confounded by the plastic bag test !

[Dan]

I like clay magic, but is there really that much of a difference? I never clayed a car and not have perfectly smooth finish after it.



Although I do use an aggressive version.

ClayMagic seems to be about 30% more effective in my non scientific testing. Its 100% more expensive than Mothers, even more when you factor in their nice towel, but there are times I still reach for it. For maintenance clay jobs I'm ok with Mothers. Meguiars is the weakest of the bunch for me, I will not buy it any more.

 

[tom p.]

Dan, is it fair for me to assume you're using the CM Blue and not the Red?

 

[Bill D]

Tom,



If you ABC the car and the contamination comes back in 4 weeks, that's some seriously contaminated environment you're in and there's nothing you can do about it. The environment won't allow for your paint to ever be totally contamination free. I would just spot clay weekly/ at each wash to keep it under control the best you can and ABC quarterly to strike down the contamination, starting with a clean slate and moving from there.

 

[Dan]

Dan, is it fair for me to assume you're using the CM Blue and not the Red?

Yep, the blue is what I use.



And while others are pushing a decon, which isn't a bad idea, the key point here you are sharing results from a clay in 20 minutes!

 

[togwt]

I think it's unrealistic. It's just shearing off the contaminants at the surface level. The ABC ought to actually remove them.

Be cognizant that detailer’s clay or a surface prep towel will only remove surface contaminants; sintered brake dust permeates the clear coat facilitating a conduit to the paint system matrix, allowing moisture / corrosion to penetrate. This below surface corrosion should be removed with a sub-surface decontamination system

 

[addysdaddy]

It's been a while since I found myself in disagreement with the "detailing powers to be" but IMO, if the paint doesn't pass the baggie test, then how does the LSP bond to the paint? So much of what we're trying to accomplish is prepping the paint to accept that LSP. Or perhaps better stated, how does it effectively bond if it was a perfectly clean surface. And with all the effort we all expend already, what's another 30-45 minutes to use a chemical cleanser product to get it right? Hey, if Clay Magic with a designated clay lube works then it works and trust me, I'm looking for the closet location to buy it. But what if it doesn't get it clean - you going to knowingly apply sealant on top of containments? If I'm only doing this 1-3x year, personally I'm going for the extra mile. If I was doing this weekly/monthly to my personal car or doing it for a living, then I'm not sure what my answer would be. But that's just my spin on it.

 

[Ron Ketcham]

If it were possible for one to be at an assembly plant, just as the vehicle has completed it's paint process and felt the painted surface with a baggy or the cellophane off a cigarette pack, they would feel the a basic "uneveness" in the paint film.

Just the nature of paint, it is not near as smooth as one would assume.

If one has buffed, polished, sanded and buffed, etc, that uneveness is removed, but so is an important part of the clearcoat film and the important UV blockers.

Now, if at one time the paint does feel very smooth, but later developes the "roughness" etc, that is most likely due to corossive chemicals having entered the paint film and are "swelling" the paint film.

The vehicle industry referrs to this as "industrial fallout", "lot rot", and other terms.

Everytime the paint is exposed to water and heat, those chemicals (usually sulfuric and nitric based) are breaking down the resin system of the paint and that is what/or may contribute to clearcoat failure sometime in the future.

The ABC system removes as much of these acids, etc as is possible, which is why so many of the vehicle manufacturers have issued Technical Bulletins for it's use or in some cases, even included it's use in the service manuals for their vehicles.

Grumpy

 

[imported_Bence]

Yup, see Tom, that's why I suggested the decon/clay combo. While the decon is dwelling on the surface, you can start claying immediately (prepare that the decon will eat the clay and it will turn mushy), or you can leave the decon work and clay afterwards. The 20 minutes is like OMG-short for me. The longest I spent claying on a single car was 4.5 hours and it was a white Ford Focus, with ginormous amounts of ferrous contamination. Overall, I decontaminated the car 3 times with Wolf's Deironizer decon gel as the paint puked red endlessly... Afterwards it was smooth like molten glass.

 

[addysdaddy]

Yup, see Tom, that's why I suggested the decon/clay combo. While the decon is dwelling on the surface, you can start claying immediately (prepare that the decon will eat the clay and it will turn mushy), or you can leave the decon work and clay afterwards. The 20 minutes is like OMG-short for me. The longest I spent claying on a single car was 4.5 hours and it was a white Ford Focus, with ginormous amounts of ferrous contamination. Overall, I decontaminated the car 3 times with Wolf's Deironizer decon gel as the paint puked red endlessly... Afterwards it was smooth like molten glass.

Hey Bence, I looked at the Wolf Deironizer and in the description it doesn't mention that it's paint safe. Can you shed any light on this as I'm currently using IronX but truly hate the smell.

 

[togwt]

Wolf Deironizer can be safely used on wheel surfaces, exterior bodywork and glass. The odour is not as strong (PC version )as IronX

 

[tom p.]

Thanks for the tip on the Wolf's product. is it highly acidic??

 

[addysdaddy]

Wolf Deironizer can be safely used on wheel surfaces, exterior bodywork and glass. The odour is not as strong (PC version )as IronX

Thanks TOGWT - when using it as a paint decontaminate solution, how long to you allow it dwell before removal and do you first agitate slightly or just spray on?

 

[togwt]

Thanks for the tip on the Wolf's product. is it highly acidic??

These types of products (IronX, Deironizer, and etc) areformulated with a neutralised acid salt that offer a safe pH: Neutral 6.5-7.0 chemical alternative to detailer’s clay that removes metallic particulates completely by using an acid salt solution on the paint surface the micro-fissures (‘pores’) are expanded by an exothermic reaction. This releases ferrous particles and caustic compounds that have developed in the paint's subsurface; the reaction agitates and loosens the particles allowing them to be rinsed away.

 

[togwt]

Thanks TOGWT - when using it as a paint decontaminate solution, how long to you allow it dwell before removal and do you first agitate slightly or just spray on?

If there is an inordinate amount of surface contamination (tree resin, bitumen or other organic material) wax, or sealants on the vehicle I would recommend you remove them before using this type of product to enable the chemicals to work on the ferrous particles without hindrance.



Lightly spray and then spread the product with a sponge, an atomizer type spray bottle is ideal for this process, allow the product to dwell for 5 minutes in the shade.



Using a wet sponge agitate he paint surface and then thoroughly rinse the paint surface with clean water

 

[imported_Bence]

Yes, there is a better-safe-than-sorry time, but Jesse and I left the gel to dry on the surface and nothing. Once I left it for hours, because I had to run to pick up a test car, then I reactivated it with water and rinsed off. No damage.



So it is highly unimaginable for me that anything wrong will happen if you leave it on the surface for more than 5 minutes.

 

[Accumulator]

The car(s) look great, there's nothing lacking, just a lingering concern that the surface really isn't Autopian clean...

Heh heh,...[INSERT usual lecture about Autopianism]

I'll find the Clay Magic and look at adding M205 before I apply my KAIO followed by the LSP...

Remember to PrepWash/etc. after the M205 lest it mess with things (and no, KAIO won't strip the TSO, at least not IME).

I kinda wish I never heard of the baggie test :think:

[REPEAT usual lecture]

It's been a while since I found myself in disagreement with the "detailing powers to be" but IMO, if the paint doesn't pass the baggie test, then how does the LSP bond to the paint?

Maybe in this case the contamination is sooo severe that it really would affect the LSPs durability, but it must've bonded to some extent as when the LSP does *NOT* bond well it's obvious when you buff it off.



If Tom P. just let it go and observed it, we'd have our answer, but I somehow suspect the Autopian in him won't allow that (heh heh, I wish he'd work on *that* instead of working on the car :chuckle: ).



Oh, and don't get me wrong...I don't really have anything against the baggie test. It's just that it never told me anything I didn't already know, and I have no reason to suspect that anything's amiss with my current (untested by baggie) prep. It's just something I'm OK with omitting as I'm not looking for any ways to make this stuff either harder or more time-consuming.



And note that even without said testing, some of my LSPs last *so* long that many people find it hard to believe.

 

[tom p.]

but I somehow suspect the Autopian in him won't allow that (heh heh, I wish he'd work on *that* instead of working on the car :chuckle: ).

LOL. I luv it..and you're right. I do need to figure this out for myself



Bence, I tried to order the Wolf's product but the local guy is out of stock at this time.

 

[tom p.]

W

hile the decon is dwelling on the surface, you can start claying immediately (prepare that the decon will eat the clay and it will turn mushy), or you can leave the decon work and clay afterwards.

I think I'd like to conserve the clay so I'll do two distinct steps.



How many cars will the 1L size of the de-ironizer do, Bence? Is the product spray-able??



Thanks

 

[tom p.]

Guys, are there any previous discussions on removing Opti-Coat? I'm trying to formulate a game plan on getting all of this cleaned up.



Thx.

 

[imported_Bence]

Tom, yes, it is sprayable. It's a lighter gel (basically a liquid), but behaves rather normally in a spray bottle. On the mentioned Focus Wagon I used 1.5 liter, but that was a truly extreme car. I think a liter should be enough for 2-3 American midsize vehicles.