color sanding (aka wet sanding)

S

SXTMagnum

New member
ok. i tried a little last night. i read how to from different places including posts here. i want to have a glass finish in the clear coat. it has the factory orange peel now.



while i was sanding, the paper and my makeshift sanding block would sort of create a vacuum due to the moisture. i didn't have a lot of control and i was trying to be careful. i did scratch it up pretty well.



i used 2000 grit, 3m fine cut, #9, BF twins & QD.



while i was doing it, i was hoping that it wouldn't look too different than the rest because it was a pita. now that it is done, i really like the improvement. my problem is that i am not going to continue unless i can find an easier way. plus, all the orange peel is not out. about 50% is gone. i will have to do the same thing on the same area to make it completely flat.
 
I also have a car with factory orange peel... 2000 Passat. I've never tried to remove it personally, it is a big chore and you'll obviously have your hands full as you can tell. The only times I've ever tried to remove the orange peel, is on the paint that I've sprayed.



First, I don't think you need to wet sand, for several reasons. The first being it's probably not bad enough to warrant this procedure, since it already had much of the orange peel effect removed from the factory. Secondly, it's potentially dangerous, more so than almost any entire paintning or detailing process that I know of... just about anything is less volatile even a heavy hand and 3M Heavy Cut. And the potential for heavy scratches, as you now know, is just too dangerous, and you'll be overworking your clear coat in the process to the point of possibly damaging it if you remove too much.



Here's my view for your particular need. (ALSO, I have tried this method with very good results removing most orange peel).



1. Clean the area with 50/50 alcohol and water. It's best if you work about 2 by 2 foot areas at a time throughout all steps. Also keep in mind that you have some quick detailer or water on hand to clean inbetween products/steps. Make sure you have one rag PER PRODUCT when cleaning and before starting onto next product/step. Also, you'll need a random orbit polisher/buffer for this procedure.



2. Use 3M 3Mâ„¢ Perfect-Itâ„¢ II Paste Rubbing Compound, make sure it is the PASTE, not the liquid. The paste is a more veratile product.

http://www21.3m.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.E...PN=1&V1=267753&DSP=&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0

Start by putting down about the size of a dime or quarter for the 2X2 foot area, use a wool pad for your randon orbit polisher and get the wool pad a LITTLE damp. Always start this procedure with a slightly dampened wool pad, it will eventually dry up as you work in the compound, but that's OK continue to work it in. It's when it turns dry that it creates a lot of friction and REALLY starts to polish, at which point your using less pressure. _Work back and forth in straight lines, not around & around. Moderate to a little pressure for first few passes, lighter for second pass, use the edge of the wool pad at an angle for another pass. Now go about half the weight you started out using (your're actually holding up the polisher a little at this point). Finnally, one last very light pass. Remember these steps in polishing... they'll be used for the next step using 3M Swirl Mark Remover. Now remove the rubbing compound using your rag designated only for that product.



3. Use 3Mâ„¢ Perfect-Itâ„¢ Glaze Swirlmark Remover. There are two kinds... one is for dark cars, the other for light. Attach a FOAM polishing pad to your polisher. Do NOT add water to your pad during this step. Work in the product just as stated above about a dime/quarter's worth... then start moderatel heavy, getting lighter, lighter, and very light. Going in a straight/linear motion.. back & forth. Wipe up the excess, even if you don't see anything, with the rag designated for this product.

http://www21.3m.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.E...PN=1&V1=267747&DSP=&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0



4. Use 3Mâ„¢ Imperialâ„¢ Hand Glaze. This step REQUIRES THAT YOU USE IT BY HAND! Just like the label states. Put it on like you would wax, let it dry and then rub it of with the rag designated for this product. Wipe it off going in a straight/linear motion.. back & forth.

http://www21.3m.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.E...PN=1&V1=267736&DSP=&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0



5. Wax it... your choice of brand or type. Use your orbital. and use cotton terry pad.



You can, of course, substitute with like products... such as Meguires... but the product should be as close as possible to what I have shown you. Personally, I'd say just buy the 3M products... up to you.





Good luck!

:xyxthumbs



Colin
 
I wouldn't suggest colorsanding your whole car. I know I have color sanded on my truck but I plan on either selling the truck in the near future (ermm... I'm a nice guy) or having the truck repainted simply because Ford paint sucks! Orange peel also sucks.



You don't want to remove more than .3mils of your paint or you'll remove the majority of the UV inhibitors from the paint, which will lead to clear coat failure.
 
masterofreality,



thank you for your suggestions. i had decided not to sand the whole thing for many reasons. but, the goal had not passed. even thought about taking it to a custom shop. so, it was good that you posted. i like 3M products. i chose #9 because it was recommended for hand application over 3M SMR. i have been satisfied with it. however, it is not removing my swirl marks and water stains. so, i do feel that a compound is necessary, not sandpaper though. i want a PC real bad. my elbows hurt and my fingers have blisters (i am not kidding). but, recent financial developments have rendered this unavailable. that doesn't quench Autopianism as i am sure you are aware. i have been looking in pawn shops and stuff but no luck yet. so, i need a plan that i can do by hand. i was using the liquid 3M Rubbing Compound Fine Cut for 1500 grit or finer. maybe i need to step up in aggressiveness. i wanted to start light of course. i've got that stupid zaino vs blackfire experiment on my hood right now. that's where these swirls and spots are bothering me the most! but, i think it has kept me from screwing it up and i have actually learned a lot from it so far. that's good. the hood also has rock chips in it. so i'm practicing on the wife's car for touch up procedures. it looks good.



Intel486,



always good to hear from you. check this out: link to people who detail their PC (personal computer)

also note that there is going to be a gallery of cases.



back to autopia: i knew about the depth of clear coat issue. i had decided it was a worthwhile risk. i reasoned this because i figured the "valleys" of the orange peel was the proper depth of clear coat and the "peaks" of the peel was thicker than necessary. so, i would just be removing the excess higher "peaks" to be level with the recommended depth. this is mere speculation. i probably should have asked someone that part first. but, my test area looks and feels great and it's on a vertical surface and still has some orange peel left. so, i think i haven't damaged anything - yet.
 
Mr. W, with all respect... you MUST use a random orbital polisher/buffer.

You DON'T need a Porter Cable... yes, their nice, yadda, yadda, yadda... and they come with variable speed.



Get yer butt down to your local Sear's and purchase a random orbit polisher... should cost you all of $20.



As I stated... it's the heat /friction generated from the polisher that eventually turns the compound into a very fine dust almost like silt. It is at THAT point that it starts to glaze, and give a mirror finish.



The other subsequent steps... SMR & IHG & Wax are merely finnessing, and adding (filling) to the glaze you perform with the compound.



Forget everything you are now doing or learned. Doing this REQUIRES a machine polisher... not by hand.
 
masterofreality said:
Mr. W, with all respect... you MUST use a random orbital polisher/buffer.

You DON'T need a Porter Cable... yes, their nice, yadda, yadda, yadda... and they come with variable speed.



Get yer butt down to your local Sear's and purchase a random orbit polisher... should cost you all of $20.
Click to expand...
I'm not 100% up to speed with machine polishers, but most people don't recommend you buy a cheap $20 polisher. The difference is power and the cheapies don't have it while the PC does. Most say the cheap polishers are only good for applying and buffing wax, not serious polishing work.
 
I'm not denying the Porter Cable to be a superior machine... in fact the numbers speak for themselves.



PC 6": 3.7 Amps/2,500 — 6,000 RPM variable speed. Superior quality. Price $135

Sears 6": .5 Amps/4,000 RPM fixed speed. OK Quality. Price $20.



And it SOUNDED to me like price was a big factor as to why mr.w hasn't purchased a PC yet. So, I'm saying $20 is gonna get you a cheap, yes.... but it WILL do the job for something like this that doesn't require heavy cutting. And I have personally tried my crappy little Sear's polisher for the exact same application with very good results... and I'm still saying you don't NEED a PC.



But what I'm REALLY SUGGESTING is ANYTHING is better than by hand, when trying to put on a product such as rubbing compound. It's practically a requirement at this stage of the game.
 
masterofreality said:
And I have personally tried my crappy little Sear's polisher for the exact same application with very good results... and I'm still saying you don't NEED a PC.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Sorry to be redundant, but you're saying you've used a cheap RO polisher like that to say, break down SMR on a car? I don't have any truly heavy jobs to do either, so this is suddenly looking more attractive now...
 
Mr.w those are Sear's I assume? What brand are those?

You can always find decent buys on ebay for example... just go with a reputable seller. I'm sure any one of those you've described will work well.

But here's something to think about... most professionals , I think, prefer 6" to 8" RO polishers because their easier to handle, easier to get into smaller contours of car, and I'm pretty sure the 3.7 amps on a 6" supply's you with more power than say going to 10" because that power is lost on the larger disc and more area on the car to push. It's the AMPS that supply the real power. :up And it's the variable speed settings on the more expensive models that give you more control.



Oh by the way, I have been able to find the Porter Cable 6" polisher for $115 at a couple places.... In fact a saw a couple of decent deals on ebay... just go with a reputable dealer if you go hat route.



4DSC... Cheap doesn't necessarily mean innadequate. Many folks here have the PC because it's a high quality polisher. I know it. I've owned a few Porter Cable items, and they ARE the best. BUT, many folks here are professional detailers... or, they just like quality, and they detail often! ;)



Do some more research and find yourself a decent polisher, or get something ultra- cheapie like I did... I don't care if I don't have the best right now, it's definitely better than by hand. AND it would probably take me half as much time to break down the products had I a good polisher with adequate AMP's. So, in the near future I'll get a nice polisher.



And yes, I have used this polisher to “break down� compound and SMR. You really need to work very small amounts of product when you want a glass finish. The product, be it a compound or a polisher like SMR needs to break down and become dust... BUT you work it in VERY gentle, with a light hand and not for very long, at a high speed. I know for a fact that this is how 3M designed their products... with the exception to Imperial HAND Glaze (AKA IHG). Many people overwork their product, using too much and keeping it wet too long... at the same time they are afraid to let it get to that stage where it breaks down and becomes dust... and with good reason, because you can burn the paint or add more swirls. Just be mindful of what you are doing and you'll have no problems. In fact, I was one of those people, always ultra-careful! But then I learned. I did more research and learned to stop being afraid and just assume control.



One more thing I thought of... is the polishing pad itself. Many folks get very thick foam polishing pads, and they soak up too much product keeping the surface too wet for too long. My foam polishing pad (used with the SMR) was realtively thin, uhmmmm... not thick that is. And for compounding I used a wool pad. I feel these two pads are detrimental in the execution, without them it just wouldn't have turned out as good as it did.



And guys, try those three 3M products I have suggested... they are VERY versatile products.
 
Thanks, I have used 3M SMR by hand and it was a lot of work. It worked just fine, but boy was I tired! I would've loved to have a machine to help out at the time. I think I'm going to have to start doing some price/performance comparisons on low-end RO polishers. :up
 
masterofreality,

i really appreciate your posts. it is encouraging at the least. i know what's the best and is definitely going to work but i can't afford it right now. i wasn't going to give up. i was going to do what i could for the cause. that meant doing it by hand in small portions as long as it takes. well, here we are. it just didn't give me the results i needed. i will continue to search out help and products. i am not familiar enough with ebay. i tried once to buy something. it was a long and arduous ordeal. i ended up getting an email that said the seller wouldn't sell to me because i didn't post reviews or something. i don't know. but, i was really mad. i am pretty easy going. but, when someone tells me they won't take my money because of something i didn't understand - well, i was confused and turned off of the whole ebay thing. if someone wants to, i know it's asking a lot, then i will buy something on ebay if they recommend it (just go with a reputable seller). i don't know what that means. that doesn't mean i'm stupid mind you. i just don't get the ebay thing. i wouldn't mind being introduced to it by someone who uses it and is comfortable with it though.
 
Glad to be of help guys!:up

Good luck on your hunt Brian.

Mr.W... don't worry, many people share your views of ebay, and none of them are wrong reasons. Hey, it can be intimidating. I personally have been using ebay for years. I did have one bad expeirenced with someone who was not reputable, wasn't a member for very long, and did not know how to conduct business... and it really soured me. So now, i'm just a little more careful.



So don't worry about ebay, there are plenty of opportunities elsewhere, trust me.



Oh and in your quest, you might find this glimmer of info useful. It certainly helped me... try not to think in terms of “what product should I buy?� or “is this tool going to be what really does it for me?� Think more about the Techniques & Processes, and not focus so much about the Tools & Products.



Good luck! :xyxthumbs



Colin
 
Just a sidenote - many cars have a certain amount of orange peel from the factory - most of which is in the base color coat and not in the clear top coat.



Ghost
 
As I stated... it's the heat /friction generated from the polisher that eventually turns the compound into a very fine dust almost like silt
Click to expand...



Master, weve been told over and over that the reason you use a ROTARY over an ORBITAL, is that its the ROTARY which provides the heat factor necessary for breaking down some types of scratches....As a matter of fact, its frequently touted that the reason ORBITALs are safer than ROTARIES is that the ORIBITALS do NOT have this attendant HEAT factor as a function of its use.



So Im a little surprised that youre recommending an Oribital expressly for this purpose. Moreover, the 'experts' say that the reason the rotaries are able to handle the most severe kinds of damage better than the oribitals is exactly because of their heat factor! So I agree with you; that for some kinds of damage, heat is required both to break some products down sufficiently to remove the damage...I only disagree to an extent about which type of buffer uses heat to its better advantage.



>>And for compounding I used a wool pad. I feel these two pads are detrimental in the execution, without them it just wouldn't have turned out as good as it did. <<



I lost you here....How are the two pads 'detrimental' to execution? detrimental meaning injurious or negative.
 
Paule, hello :wavey



I used detrimental out of context... errrr misused.

What I mean is that wool and foam pads are detrimental if wrongly used, and at the same time they are key in how/when you use them.



I was only recommending an cheapie orbital, until Mr.W could afford something better... as oppossed to doing this by hand. Which is what he was doing, and there's no way you're going to get the heat/friction from the compound if you're doing it by hand. I also feel that for most of the work people like us do, that a orbital is much safer, and just as effective. And I find that even a cheap orbital can provide enough friction... for now, until one can afford a PC.



Colin
 
And I find that even a cheap orbital can provide enough friction... for now, until one can afford a PC.
Click to expand...



Master Colin, I quite agree...Matter of fact, before I got my PC, I was using just that...a Waxmaster orbital from sears...And frankly it lasted me through almost 4 yrs of a Volvo 850 turbo, and a couple more of my M3...And it kept my cars looking great, so, yea, I definitely concur..



And yes I also agree that wool pads can certainly be most detrimental to anone's nice clearcoat finish, if theyre not careful...Its funny...Ive seen some black cars especially that have so many fineline swirls in their finish that the owners actually admire the shine, which is not from the paint, but from the glint of the light source off the myriad swirl marks! There are so many it looks like its part of the surface. Im sure those have had to be caused by wool pads being very detrimental to the finish .;)
 
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