Coatings vs. Standard LSP'S discussion

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House of Wax said:
Needs more Napalm
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marty_feldman.jpg
 
It is a very amusing discussion here with lots of interesting ideas and opinions but the only thing lacking is any sign of science which I think can be very helpful to add to this thread. Clear coat paint has improved tremendously since the 90s when I was formulating paint, however whether it is based on urethanes, acrylics, melamines, silanes, etc. all factory clears oxidize within days, etch within hours of exposure to environmental chemicals, and scratch easily (except for ceramiclears). While polishing can remove damaged paint, it will diminish the clear coat which is at best 2-3 mills thick. The rule of thumb at car plants I worked with was if more than 0.1 mil of clear was removed during removal of dirt nibs, etc. they sent the panels for repaint since the clear could fail prematurely. In fact I have seen more cars on the road that have had paint failure from over polishing than from neglect!

Unlike waxes or sealants/nano sealants, the film thickness and protective properties of a true coating will not diminish over time and should require no boosters. This does not in any way mean that you can not apply pure wax or pure sealant on top of a coating for aesthetic reasons, but the protection and performance properties of a coating is far greater than waxes or sealants. Over the past few years ceramic coatings have further been improved in performance, ease of application process, as well as Gloss. Last but not least, car manufacturers are being forced to switch to waterborne clears. These newer paint systems are much more susceptible to chemical etching and scratching as compared to the solvent based systems. There are a few car plants that have already switched to waterborne clears while others will have to make the transition within the next couple of years. It will take several more years for paint manufacturers to improve waterborne clears to reach the same level of performance as the current solvent based systems.
 
Thomas Dekany said:
Robert, you do not need to click on this thread, why not just ignore it?

As far as who can get OC, each unit that is sold to you has an assigned code. So if anyone of the authorized installers order a kit and it isn't registered with optimum, well, you know what will happen - unless of course the company provides it for you.

That is reality - as far as selling something that you do not believe in, but you have no problem selling it to your customers who come to you because they trust you? I could never do that, but if that is ok in your book, what does that say about the person?
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The cajones you think you have to question my ethics!!, when someone DEMANDS a coating after reading dribble like yours saying the coating will protect you from everything as without OCP your biz imo would be a byword. I then go over what the real world expectations should be.

I mentioned what I will utilize as far as a coating is concerned, furthermore I go over very specific maintenance requirements and no promises of "Will protect the car through re-entry in space like the space shuttle". Some of my clients have went to others locally falling for the hype..........................then e-mail or show up at the shop with the "you told me so" look on their face and then ask "How do they get away with selling something that does not perform as they said.................. my answer "You fell for it, when do you want to come in and START ALL OVER?".
 
Chocolate cake is a way better dessert than ice cream.


Ice cream tastes good, but doesn’t last very long before it melts. Cake lasts for days if you care for it properly by covering it with plastic wrap and keeping it in the refrigerator. It takes much more effort to make a cake, with the mixing and baking for the correct amount of time. If you mess up the frosting, you have to wipe it off and start all over again.


If you happen to like ice cream, its because you clearly don’t understand cake. And if you ever had cake that you didn’t like, its because you didn’t bake it correctly, or you didn’t properly put plastic on it and put in the refrigerator when you were done. Most of you have ovens, pans, measuring cups, and can read the directions on the cake box. Maybe you bake cakes sometimes, or maybe even you have been baking cakes for a long time, but I sell my cakes to people, and I am therefore a professional cake baker. This means that your opinions on the value of cake vs. ice cream are automatically “less than” and my opinion is “more than”. And betty crocker cakes are better than all the other cakes because I use them and I like them more, and after all, you don’t get paid when you bake cakes so you can’t possibly have a valid opinion on whether or not you like ice cream better than cake.


Because cake is better, we don’t need to debate what the “best” ice cream flavor is for silver spoons vs. white plastic ones.
 
It would seem to me that having the protective layer of a coating would lead to less polishing over time. Once every 2 years instead of 1-2x's per year. In the interest of the longevity of the paint, this would seem to be a very good thing.

overall, it would seem to me that if you don't want to coat your car... Then don't. I'm at a loss for why this thread has gotten so heated.

Other than not being able to polish and wax your car as often with a coating, I really can't see a negative. Some of us would love to do that every month even if it's not a great idea.
 
1 - my goodness! I meant the people YOU brought up. The detailers you claim to sell coatings for a living who wouldn't use it on their own cars. I am not talking about you.

2 - do you know what I tell my customers?

3 - Something like OCP, all you do is wash your car to maintain. Wash it regularly. Wash it properly. Please don't try to reinvent the wheel. If you don't/can't commit to follow a few simple rules, you bring your car back to the installer for an annual decon.

4 - ""Some of my clients have went to others locally""

It is actually HAVE GONE, no have went. But anyway. I will guess you either mean Joseph or Jeff? Please take it up with those guys. If Opti Coat can last (in Canada) 8 years now, although it does get a yearly decon, there are 2 things I see that could have gone wrong with the people that went back to you (because they fell for the hype? LOL) What hype?

But I am pretty sure that you want to hear none of that, so I will just thank the universe that you are there to rescue these poor souls.

autoconcierge said:
The cajones you think you have to question my ethics!!, when someone DEMANDS a coating after reading dribble like yours saying the coating will protect you from everything as without OCP your biz imo would be a byword. I then go over what the real world expectations should be.

I mentioned what I will utilize as far as a coating is concerned, furthermore I go over very specific maintenance requirements and no promises of "Will protect the car through re-entry in space like the space shuttle". Some of my clients have went to others locally falling for the hype..........................then e-mail or show up at the shop with the "you told me so" look on their face and then ask "How do they get away with selling something that does not perform as they said.................. my answer "You fell for it, when do you want to come in and START ALL OVER?".
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Thomas Dekany said:
1 - my goodness! I meant the people YOU brought up. The detailers you claim to sell coatings for a living who wouldn't use it on their own cars. I am not talking about you.

2 - do you know what I tell my customers?

3 - Something like OCP, all you do is wash your car to maintain. Wash it regularly. Wash it properly. Please don't try to reinvent the wheel. If you don't/can't commit to follow a few simple rules, you bring your car back to the installer for an annual decon.

4 - ""Some of my clients have went to others locally""

It is actually HAVE GONE, no have went. But anyway. I will guess you either mean Joseph or Jeff? Please take it up with those guys. If Opti Coat can last (in Canada) 8 years now, although it does get a yearly decon, there are 2 things I see that could have gone wrong with the people that went back to you (because they fell for the hype? LOL) What hype?

But I am pretty sure that you want to hear none of that, so I will just thank the universe that you are there to rescue these poor souls.
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Mods do you see this?, Op has experience with coatings.................. Thomas comes in and says he does not know what he is doing(Because he was there when the OP coated the car) basically has a bad infomercial of OPT products(Just like he did when he was affiliated with 3D, and as that went down badly because of said foot in mouth disease he is no longer affiliated with 3D imagine that).

Thomas to lecture me in prose when you are ESL status considering your rambling misspelled posts leave me laughing truly. If I said up you would counter with down............... you call me a bully while being a bully. Leave people alone and you would not get the reactions you do, most will not come back at you like I do but really someone has to check you.

I have also observed that no matter what time I come on this site you are logged on, I will check sometimes during my breaks from actually working on a vehicle(s) in the shop and there you are no matter the time thus the 12K plus posts. I can also count on you being a dissenting voice on anything I like or speak of favorably this is established............... and instead of a actually debating with facts or a semblance thereof ........................we get what you post all the day long.
 
Finally finished this car - 41 hours altogether. 40 hours of prep, 1 hour of applying OCP. Car was just picked up used with 14K on the ODO. The color is amazing. This is the 4th car I am doing for this client, the first one was an M6 in Sapphire Black. He traded it in for this Audi which I corrected and coated in July of 2013. He claims that the car still looks amazing and all he has ever done was wash it. So much for the hype.




Dr. G said:
It is a very amusing discussion here with lots of interesting ideas and opinions but the only thing lacking is any sign of science which I think can be very helpful to add to this thread. Clear coat paint has improved tremendously since the 90s when I was formulating paint, however whether it is based on urethanes, acrylics, melamines, silanes, etc. all factory clears oxidize within days, etch within hours of exposure to environmental chemicals, and scratch easily (except for ceramiclears). While polishing can remove damaged paint, it will diminish the clear coat which is at best 2-3 mills thick. The rule of thumb at car plants I worked with was if more than 0.1 mil of clear was removed during removal of dirt nibs, etc. they sent the panels for repaint since the clear could fail prematurely. In fact I have seen more cars on the road that have had paint failure from over polishing than from neglect!

Unlike waxes or sealants/nano sealants, the film thickness and protective properties of a true coating will not diminish over time and should require no boosters. This does not in any way mean that you can not apply pure wax or pure sealant on top of a coating for aesthetic reasons, but the protection and performance properties of a coating is far greater than waxes or sealants. Over the past few years ceramic coatings have further been improved in performance, ease of application process, as well as Gloss. Last but not least, car manufacturers are being forced to switch to waterborne clears. These newer paint systems are much more susceptible to chemical etching and scratching as compared to the solvent based systems. There are a few car plants that have already switched to waterborne clears while others will have to make the transition within the next couple of years. It will take several more years for paint manufacturers to improve waterborne clears to reach the same level of performance as the current solvent based systems.
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"Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic." - William E. Gladstone

On a more related note...

I think I'm going to try PBL on the next car I get. Might even try it on the Suburban once I get the paint chips "fixed." Everything I've seen says it's easy to apply. Who knows though, I'm still experimenting.

(Yes, I know... horrible attempt to get back on topic... best I could think of right now.)
 
I used PBL v2 on my moms car and it was very easy. It was hot that day, so it flashed super quick... Which is why I'm waiting until next month to do my own car. Nice product, though and moms car came out looking great. Can't wait to see it on my car.
 
Thomas Dekany said:
Finally finished this car - 41 hours altogether. 40 hours of prep, 1 hour of applying OCP. Car was just picked up used with 14K on the ODO. The color is amazing. This is the 4th car I am doing for this client, the first one was an M6 in Sapphire Black. He traded it in for this Audi which I corrected and coated in July of 2013. He claims that the car still looks amazing and all he has ever done was wash it. So much for the hype.

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40 hours?!?!?!?!

Ok... I don't do this for a living. I've only done a few cars and the longest I've ever spent was 14 hours. I can't imagine it taking 40. How many steps? How much heavy spot correction? What all went into it that it took 40 hours?
 
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