clearcoat question

E

Envious Eric

New member
so people say that all BMW, AUDI, Mercedes, etc clear is the same across the color range...



with that said, if it truly is the same hardness/softness, how is it possible that I can polish a BSM bmw with an white pad and powerfinish and remove 90 percent of the light defects, yet on white, it hardly touches the same light defects and I have to use 105 and either a surbuf or orange pad????



someone please explain with some facts...
 
There are apparently a few "special cases" where the clear's hardness is different and it falls along the lines of which basecoat the car has. No, I don't know why.



On the Audis, there was a batch of Nagarro (sp?) blue S4s that were stupid-soft; utterly weird but I've never heard about it with any other color.
 
I wouldn't say that at all. I think there is a big difference between a lot of them. Some colors are certainly hard as diamond, but some colors are so soft in my experience that it really makes me question what people are speaking by experience and what people are merely repeating what they read on internet forums.





I would say even with Audi and MB, there are some colors that simply respond to polishing and some paints are plain hard but still polishable. It runs the spectrum IME. Perhaps its differences in technique?





Mis-information and information repetition(regurgitation as I call it) are the reasons a lot of inexperienced people get so confused and mind-boggled that what they read doesn't work in application.



Don't believe everything you read on the internet kids.
 
autoaesthetica said:
I wouldn't say that at all. I think there is a big difference between a lot of them. Some colors are certainly hard as diamond, but some colors are so soft in my experience that it really makes me question what people are speaking by experience and what people are merely repeating what they read on internet forums.





I would say even with Audi and MB, there are some colors that simply respond to polishing and some paints are plain hard but still polishable. It runs the spectrum IME. Perhaps its differences in technique?





Mis-information and information repetition(regurgitation as I call it) are the reasons a lot of inexperienced people get so confused and mind-boggled that what they read doesn't work in application.



Don't believe everything you read on the internet kids.
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Very well put. I think some more of our effort could go into explaining/understanding how the primer/basecoat/clearcoat are applied and react as they cure with each other or however all that stuff works.
 
Who said that Eric?



toyotaguy said:
so people say that all BMW, AUDI, Mercedes, etc clear is the same across the color range...



with that said, if it truly is the same hardness/softness, how is it possible that I can polish a BSM bmw with an white pad and powerfinish and remove 90 percent of the light defects, yet on white, it hardly touches the same light defects and I have to use 105 and either a surbuf or orange pad????



someone please explain with some facts...
Click to expand...
 
toyotaguy said:
so people say that all BMW, AUDI, Mercedes, etc clear is the same across the color range...



with that said, if it truly is the same hardness/softness, how is it possible that I can polish a BSM bmw with an white pad and powerfinish and remove 90 percent of the light defects, yet on white, it hardly touches the same light defects and I have to use 105 and either a surbuf or orange pad????



someone please explain with some facts...
Click to expand...





Not all paints on a specific manufacturer's vehicles will be the same. This is a big misconception. The white paint you speak of may be a single stage paint... which is usually hard because of the formulations chemical makeup (contains titanium dioxide.) Although it may not be the case here, its definitely a possibility. The VIN should be able to tell you a bit about the paint.



Heres a good article on the subject:

The Lesson White Paint Teaches Us - Auto Geek Online Auto Detailing Forum



You can thank Mike Phillips for that tidbit of knowledge, I do.
 
Accumulator said:
There are apparently a few "special cases" where the clear's hardness is different and it falls along the lines of which basecoat the car has. No, I don't know why.



On the Audis, there was a batch of Nagarro (sp?) blue S4s that were stupid-soft; utterly weird but I've never heard about it with any other color.
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Hi Acc ! it's been a long time!





My company does lots of Audis for their launch events and we do tonnes of Mercs, Beemers and Audis, and many of their Tech Managers are customers as well.



Each mftr never use just 1 brand/supplier of paint coatings. Minimum 2.

Certain colors might be supplied by another supplier. And diff production lines might use different spraying methods and equipment, and hence, even slightly diff paint

formulations (eg % of hardener etc).Audi in Germany usually uses mainly BASF but may also use Dupont or PPG.



Mercedes in Germany used to spray mainly PPG certainly but could occasionally use BASF for certain colors and/or models.



BMW in Spartanburg uses the B1/B2 wet-on-wet system by PPG and needless to say, being a WOW, the gloss won't be anything to shout about. In contrast, it's huge Thailand facility uses a diff system and certainly not PPG.





Generally, Audis hv quite hard clears.....but I've encountered once a black 2010 A4 with ultra soft clear. Peugeot uses mainly Dupont in their France plant, and I do 10-13 units mthly (308 turbos, 308cc, 3008 SUV, RCZ etc) Very hard clear.....but there was 1 unit of ultra soft PUG 3008 (black) that was hell to work on.





So while we can only make a generalization on clear coat hardness, there'll always be the occasional black sheep!!!!
 
I thought Audi also used Spies-Hecker (sp ?) and yep, the clear is hard but not as challenging as my '89 clear coated white de Ville (!) I believe duPont was still being used for it back then. It remains the most difficult paint Ive polished.
 
Seems like most German solid black paints are softer and more prone to marring from a DA than their other colors. I've noticed it with Corvettes too.
 
people on different forums keep mentioning that all clear is the same, but I have a hard time believing it. I mean, a jet black BMW polishes up MUCH easier than a white bmw, or even a red bmw. So in my thinking, I dont believe its all the same across the board. One guy even mentioned it was the same clear hardness, but softer base color and thats why the paint polished up differently...I didnt say anything on that one, lol
 
• Each vehicle assembly plant uses different clear coat paint from one of the three (or more) major paint suppliers; PPG, DuPont, and BASF products and each of these companies have a range of several differing paints



• Most vehicle manufacturers will issue a painting specification that denotes amongst other things; a paint to hardener ratio, dependent upon quality control this spec may or may not be strictly adhered to

• Some vehicle manufacturers have more than one plant assembling the same model of a vehicle; each plant will often use a different supplier for the clear coat paints.

• Each assembly plant may elect to use one of several OEM paints from PPG, DuPont or BASF clear coat product lines.



This is also true of imports assembled in the US; usually one paint supplier is approved for all plants; however each plant may modify the application/bake process in order to meet production demand. This may also affect which has the harder or softer clear.



There are other factors that will have an effect; the composition of the clear coat used (single, duel component, or powder) this generally reflects the trade-off the OEM is prepared to accept between scratch resistance and gloss level considered acceptable, oven drying time and its temperature, quality of the quality of the isocyanates used, relevant age (i.e. how long ago was the paint applied) spot panel repairs (refinish) that are carried out either at the assembly plant or the rail head or port of entry. Paint density (soft paint) could also be caused if it was polished before the paint had time to fully cure
 
Gigondaz- Hey, good to see you posting :wavey



That's intersting about the soft black A4. Somebody here said his new white Q5 was soft, but I had one as a loaner and I, uhm...well, let's just say I determined that its clear was typical Audi-hard.



autoaesthetica said:
..I would say even with Audi and MB, there are some colors that simply respond to polishing and some paints are plain hard but still polishable. It runs the spectrum IME. Perhaps its differences in technique?
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In my case, it's that "internet info" that I rely on with regard to the *variations* in Audi clear, can't say I've experienced it in person. Every one I've polished has had the "usual" hard, but workable (if you do it right ;) ) clear. Very little variation even between considerably different vintages. I got used to "Audi clear" back in the late '80s, and have simply never noticed any big diffs since then. Funny, huh? You'd sure think that I would have found more variation over the years, but nope :nixweiss



Bill D said:
I thought Audi also used Spies-Hecker (sp ?)...
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That's what I *think* was used on my A8/S8, but I wouldn't bet my life on it. The guys at [the dealership-formerly-known-as-Stoddard] use S-H paint for almost all of my paintwork as it keeps both them and me happy more often than other stuff (surprisingly, even more often than Glasurit for some reason).
 
jacobrobs said:
I am very pleased with the thought and don’t feel like adding anything in it. It a perfect answer.
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You just gotta love how (un)creative spammers are getting.

:beware:banplease:
 
When it comes to correction...I feel the paint out. I use what product gives me the best correction. Try a swirl removal system....then reglaze and see what it looks like. It really depends what kind of life the car has had. I agree that GM paint was real crap in the 80s ans early 90s. You cant tell hard from soft clear coats until you actually feel the paint while buffing. I start mild and take it to a bit more bite if the paint can stand it.
 
Some of the best paints to correct are the German cars. Spies Hecker as well as Glassurite have got to be my favorites.....PPG tends to be SOFT as a rule. PPG remains very correctable in most cases. The main culprit I feel are these BRUSH car washes....they rip the finish off the car. The other culprit is that people dont care about their cars like they should. Consider 60 percent of the population never visit a dentist even one time per year. Mind boggling.
 
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