CLAY - Friend or Foe?

R

rd_volvo

New member
I've been using clay for a few years now and I'm not

sure if I'm doing more harm than good.



After each session the surface feels pristine but one

thing I noticed is that hair size scratches are appearing.



Maybe as the clay lifts the particles the larger ones are

lodging in the clay surface and scratching the finish.



I've read that certain veterans of the detailing hobby

do not like clay. Maybe this is one of the reasons.



Anyone else finding new scratching after clay sessions?
 
Clay itself is not abrasive, it is the particles that lodge in the clay like you said. Those particles will put light scratches in the surface if you let it get dirty.



I cut my claybar up into little claybars. I then use one of the little ones and kneed it between sections. When it becomes dirty I pitch it. I also don't clay unless I plan on polishing paint. I have never had clay put a scratch in paint that the swirl remover didn't take out. In other words, yes it scratches but they aren't deep. More like swirls than scratches.
 
Intel,



Clay is most certianly abraisve, how do you think it removes surface contamination? Think of it as a very super fine grade of sandpaper. IMO you should not clay more than a few times a year (2-3) It does remove some clearcoat/paint/wax/polish with each use. Then there is the danger of dragging those impurities across the paint. If the paint is well protected and frequently washed your need for clay is greatly reduced. Read this and make your own opinion.



http://www.carcareonline.com/overspray_clays.html
 
Avalanche said:
Intel,



Clay is most certianly abraisve, how do you think it removes surface contamination? Think of it as a very super fine grade of sandpaper. IMO you should not clay more than a few times a year (2-3) It does remove some clearcoat/paint/wax/polish with each use. Then there is the danger of dragging those impurities across the paint. If the paint is well protected and frequently washed your need for clay is greatly reduced. Read this and make your own opinion.



http://www.carcareonline.com/overspray_clays.html
Click to expand...



Clay is not abrasive.



Clay removes contamination from the paint by grabbing the part of the contamination that sticks above the surface of the paint. The particles get stuck in the clay and they are pulled out of the paint. There is no abrasive material in the clay. A new bar of clay is far from being like sandpaper. Slide clay over freshly sprayed, sanded, and polished paint and the only thing you might see is streaks of clay. There will be no scratches. The scratches you see are from the contamination stuck in the clay. The contamination has to be sticking above the surface of the paint. This is why clay bars won't remove stains from bird pop and other forms of paint discoloration.



Their comparison of using a claybar is like cleaning you face by peeling off a layer of skin is a very bad way to compare it. Polishing paint is like peeling off the top layer of skin. Using a claybar is more like... using one of those sticky thing people put on their nose to pull out blackheads. It pull out the contamination but leaves everything else.
 
Intel486 said:
Their comparison of using a claybar is like cleaning you face by peeling off a layer of skin is a very bad way to compare it.
Click to expand...



I don't agree with that comparison either. I consider claying an extremely important step in paint prep. Even after hitting a panel a few times with FI-2 when detailing my sister's old beater car, the paint looked shiny and swirl-free, but it still didn't feel smooth to the touch. Only after claying it did the surface look and feel perfect. Without a smooth surface, you're compromising the longevity of your protectant.
 
___________________________________________________

Clay removes contamination from the paint by grabbing the part of the contamination that sticks above the surface of the paint. The particles get stuck in the clay and they are pulled out of the paint. There is no abrasive material in the clay. A new bar of clay is far from being like sandpaper.

___________________________________________________



Intel,



I have to disagree with your interpretation on the way clay removes contamination. If your example were true a terry cloth or your wash mit would be just as good at removing surface junk. Clay has no magic vaccum like properties to lift contamination, its all in friction and surface contact.



Clay comes from the ground, it is actually just dirt, and dirt is indeed abrasive. I certainly didnt mean that its like a 80 grit sandpaper but more like a superfine, superfine grade. While I'm not trying to change anyones mind, its just the way it is, and I like to discuss and debate these things.





Take Care.
 
Avalanche said:
Clay comes from the ground, it is actually just dirt, and dirt is indeed abrasive.
Click to expand...



You do realize that the clay you use on paint is synthetic?



Edit: here are a few things



From the Meguiar's webpage in their description of their Claybar "specially formulated non-abrasive clay bar"



From ProWax's Webpage "CLAY AWAYâ„¢3 is a non-scratch,.."
 
Clay is not abrasive. It pulls rail dust, overspray, and other microscopic contamination out of the paint, not magically, but by gently pulling contamination out. I have clayed non-clear coated cars, and I have never seen the color of the paint on the clay bar. I do, however, see lots of tiny little pieces of crud that once made the car course and rough. But since the contaminations that made the car rough are no longer in the paint (and might I add, not by means of abrasion, which would only level the contamination), the surface is smooth like glass.



If your clay is causing scratches, you need to remember to use different sides of the clay so the rail dust and overspray don't scratch. Clay doesn't scratch, but the little pieces that are pulled out with the clay do. And if your clay bar is dirty, then you have to get a new clay bar so the dirtiness won't scratch.
 
Avalanche said:
Clay is most certianly abraisve, how do you think it removes surface contamination? Think of it as a very super fine grade of sandpaper.
Click to expand...



I dunno..



If clay was just like a super fine grade of sandpaper, why would anyone use it? You might as well just use a polish and kill two birds with one stone (swirls and contamination).



I have yet to hear of anyone removing contamination via polishing :)



I do beleave some clays (if not all) have very fine abrasives to loosen contamination and overspray. They are not a polish-bar though :)
 
In an AIO thread, Tim wrote this, and I like the "food for thought" a lot.





As far as detailing products go, different products serve different purposes in different situations, but it sorta puts them all against each other.



You should try SMR following claying your car so you can have a smooth finish that has less swirls.



Here's what Tim wrote (even though it doesn't specifically apply to this question)
hey gb, in my opinion all of the products you mentioned will give you about the same results as far removing swirls goes. I haven't had much luck removing swirls with any of the products that you mention except for very, very light swirls/scratches. on an abrasive scale all three are basically non-abrasive and you can't fix paint problems with them, you can just clean paint with them.



i had a friend with a black car that had water spots. we used aio and after much rubbing the spots were still on the car. we grabbed a clay bar and it removed the water spots in one pass. does this mean clay is more aggressive than aio?



i had two different situations where i had cars that were heavily oxidized. what was the best product for removing oxidation? 3M imperial hand glaze took off the oxidation quicker than anything else we tried (we tried aio and finish first as comparisons). does this mean that 3m imperial hand glaze is more abrasive than aio?



i'm not arguing anyone's theory, just offering my observations and some food (detailing food that is) for thought. i have pictures of one of the oxidized cars, well gmc jimmy actually. i'll find a scanner and show them to you.
Click to expand...
 
My .02 to the mix:



1) clay is NOT an abrasive. Although the name is clay, it is not in any stretch of the imagination related to the stuff in the ground.



2) clay works via the edge of the clay shearing the contaminant from the paint surface, and then holding it in suspension.



3) as to clay causing scratches, it (in and of itself) does not create a scratch. However, lack of a proper lubricant can create undesired friction, which can cause the scratch. You can also create a scratch by not kneading the clay frequently enough.



I'd be curious as to what was used as a lubricant when the "scratching" was introduced - was it a QD, or a water/car wash soap solution?



4) clay does not remove any of the clearcoat.
 
Hmmmmmm,



Maybe I'll look in to the newer clays, and see what the story is with their abrasive qualities. You fellas have inspired some research.
 
The only clays I'd classify as "abrasive" would be the Clay Magic red bar, and possibly the blue bar to a lesser extent. IMO clay is not abrasive, but it can be made to be. Quality clay like Z18 or Pinnacle or Mother's are not even close to being an abrasive. But, I know for sure that at least two of those clays are synthetic formulas, which may have something to do with it.... Normal clayiing would never remove clearcoat or swirls.



:wavey
 
Big Time Friend.



Think of clay like this: You blow a big bubble, and get gum all over your face. How do you remove it? You rub the gum still in you mouth on your face, to pull it off.



Clay works the same way. It grabs the contaminants, and pulls them off the paint.



Later
 
I had not heard of clay bars when I first started detailing. I had just discovered Meguiars so I used both the Gold Class swirl remover, and Gold Class Polish and wax. It looked much better, but felt rough. As the wax wore out I found that the car was completely covered in swirl marks. I had actually made the finish worse by using a buffer without using a clay bar first.



As I looked for a solution I discovered clay bars, along with swirl removers. After some work I was able to get them out.



Later when my Dad got a new car and wanted it detailed I made sure that I used a clay bar before using any swirl removers or polish. When no swirls appeared I knew I had found a new technique. I now clay every vehicle twice a year before any polishes are applied. Even years later that vehicle has no swirls.



I have an older car that was oxydized before I bought it. Other things may bring up color when I polish or wax it, but never when using a clay bar. For this reason I don't believe that it is seriously abrasive.



I can get a better degree of clarity as well as smoothness by using the clay bar.
 
Great feedback guys.



I love clay. My only concern was that larger particles

which were caught in the outer layer of clay would

turn the clay into a weapon.



I like the advice of cutting the clay into small throw away

pieces for one time use.



TK



RD
 
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