Carnauba "Mythbuster".

This all has gone a bit off topic from the so called mythes of carnauba. Shame on all of you for speaking without trying. I have seen so many arguments in my short time here about product A being better than product B and the poster has never even tried product B!!! But believes so much in tradition or whatever reason to make him believe that his choice is the right one.



I'm sorry to say that much of what the OP is saying here is a lot of conjecture and marketing of his own. While I appreciare people trying to inform the masses about products and procedure, I think we should all be a bit more carefull before we post. Makinging blanket comments is not wise. Yes, much of what you see on the shelf, internet, TV, etc. is marketing. If not for marketing many products would die. The OP is doing a bit of his own marketing to get his name out there and improve his reputation as a wax maker. Nothing wrong with that. However as stated making blanket comments does not show wisdom. Saying that "white carnauba is just yellow bleached...OOOPS" is probably not the best way to dispel a myth. White carnauba does have greater advantages than yellow alone. It is rare because most companies would rather not spend the extra cash in the refinement process. And why doesn't my carnauba wax last more than a month? Perhaps my car is driven once a month. I have a feeling the wax is still there. We should all be carefull about producing our opinions as blanket fact. Not trying to be passive agressive, but rather want to show the importance of being unbias and use referenced facts when trying to dispel a myth.



I found the parallel between wax and shampoo kind interesting. There are several ingredients in shampoo as there are in wax. Pantene markets shine. That shine comes from wax in the sampoo. Kinda funny eh? Problem is wax is not good for your hair. It is hard to wash out and can cause build up an irriate your scalp. Just a tid bit. I have a friend who is in the hair care industry and have learned more than I even thought I needed to know about hair care....but since I am losing it I thought it paramount. To say that buying a bottle of $36 dollor will not do any better than a $3.50 bottle is not a wise comment. There are in fact shampoos with better formulations even tho they may have the same ingredients on the bottle. And perhaps there is just one ingredient in that bottle that creates an advantage over the other (even if it is slight). Same with wax. Unless you know the percent of each ingredient and the formulation there is no way to say that a $36 is = to a $3.50. Perhaps there is more pyrithione zinc in product A than in B. Perhaps wax maker A uses a better solvent than B to produce a "White wax".



All that to say we should stop with the pissing at each other. If you want to use a Carnauba use it. If you like a synthetic use it. If you want to spend $7000 or $15 that is up to you. But unless you have hard facts don't bother trying to sway me or anyone else on what products are better than the other. In the end it is how you use the products rather than what you buy. And also for the pros it matters what your customer thinks about your product.



Love, Peace and Hair Grease (Hair Grease contains bees wax, petrolatum, microcrystalline wax and parafine to name a few ingredients ;) )



:lock:
 
lbls1 said:
Anthony,



You do not have to take the challenge. I put the opportunity out there to all critics of high end waxes, that say that they're not up to their claims and/or that all lsps and waxes are equal.



Secondly, while I respect the opinion of those people that you've spoken to, I do not know of them, nor have these people produced products on the market, or (as far as I've know from this post) have manufactured their own wax products or have conducted and published studies on carnauba and other waxes. I can't really buy into what is claimed by these people, other than the fact that its their opinion based on their experience.



Third, Zymol has produced their products for several years, and as of yet have not been banned from manufacturing their products. The company freely discloses the content of their wax products, and stand by their claims. All anyone (including those folks that you've quoted) would need to do would be to examine any of those products and perform an ingredients analysis to actually determine the validity of Zymols claims. If this can be done, then again, my challenge would be to disclose any misclaims (or validation) of Zymol's product performance and ingredient specifications.



So...my challenge remains. Put Zymol or any of the exotic waxes to the test, instead of bashing their products without trying them personally. Otherwise, discussions such as this topic are a waste of internet text space, when describing the actual performance of products without a use or comparison experience to support them.
Click to expand...





Bud Abraham - Runs Detail Plus and yes more of a salesperson than the actual maker of products BUT he has years of experience in the detailing industry and his company manufacturers products so he works with chemists. He is the author of many articles in industry (detailing/car washing) magazines and travels the globe conducting seminars.



Ron Ketcham works for ValuGard International. They work with many of the major car manufacturers and provide for them most of their in house products. They work closely with paint manufacturers such as PPG. He also works closely with chemists that make these products for ValuGard. Many of the products people are using on these forums are actually private labeled ValuGard products.



Dr. David Ghodoussi holds a Masters and Ph.D. in Polymer and organic chemistry and also an MBA and degrees in chemical engineering and chemistry. He also has 12 years experience producing paints for the automotive industry. He is the creator and producer of Optimum products.



So I have some qualified resources to go to when I have questions, such as this one. If you like call David up and speak with him and ask him, from a chemistry view, what could possibly justify a wax costing $500.00.....even $100.00?



Ron "Grumpy" Ketcham is also available to speak with. His knowledge in these areas is great and he'll give it to you straight.



I again state there is no need to test a high dollar wax to a lower cost wax because there is nothing within the ingredients to make such a huge difference.



Now are there waxes that are superior to other paste waxes? Of course there are. Some waxes are just plain junk and fillers but again my argument is cost, as in, there is nothing in a $500.00 tub of wax to justify that cost other than people willing to pay that price. There is only so much carnauba wax that can be crammed into a wax mixture. The higher the carnauba content the more difficult the wax is to manufacturer and work with.



As Benvegas and I have noted, the cost for a product must take into consideration R&D, labels, promotion, labor, warehousing, equipment, etc. But what on earth could possibly justify $500.00 or more? I have no problem with people buying and using that wax. My beef comes with people who claim that because it cost them $500 it is the best wax made, nothing can compare to it...it's superior to any and all waxes.....it has to be because it costs $500.00!!



Anthony
 
SubyDude said:
All that to say we should stop with the pissing at each other.



:lock:
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I've actually read this entire thread from beginning to end and no one is "pissing on each other"... yet. No one has called any poster anything derogatory and this is what makes this forum the great forum that it is... Almost everyone keeps their cool and makes their statement in a professional manner. Have some of the people taken this thread a little too personal? Perhaps, but they have kept an even keel and their posts reflect their elevated, but controlled opinions.



When I first read this thread in its infancy, I immediately thought "Uh oh... someone's out to stir the wax pot... again..." Perhaps the pot "needs" to be stirred a bit and some educational material revisited by newcomers alike.



-Mike
 
Anthony Orosco said:
Bud Abraham - Runs Detail Plus and yes more of a salesperson than the actual maker of products BUT he has years of experience in the detailing industry and his company manufacturers products so he works with chemists. He is the author of many articles in industry (detailing/car washing) magazines and travels the globe conducting seminars.



Ron Ketcham works for ValuGard International. They work with many of the major car manufacturers and provide for them most of their in house products. They work closely with paint manufacturers such as PPG. He also works closely with chemists that make these products for ValuGard. Many of the products people are using on these forums are actually private labeled ValuGard products.



Dr. David Ghodoussi holds a Masters and Ph.D. in Polymer and organic chemistry and also an MBA and degrees in chemical engineering and chemistry. He also has 12 years experience producing paints for the automotive industry. He is the creator and producer of Optimum products.



So I have some qualified resources to go to when I have questions, such as this one. If you like call David up and speak with him and ask him, from a chemistry view, what could possibly justify a wax costing $500.00.....even $100.00?



Ron "Grumpy" Ketcham is also available to speak with. His knowledge in these areas is great and he'll give it to you straight.



I again state there is no need to test a high dollar wax to a lower cost wax because there is nothing within the ingredients to make such a huge difference.



Now are there waxes that are superior to other paste waxes? Of course there are. Some waxes are just plain junk and fillers but again my argument is cost, as in, there is nothing in a $500.00 tub of wax to justify that cost other than people willing to pay that price. There is only so much carnauba wax that can be crammed into a wax mixture. The higher the carnauba content the more difficult the wax is to manufacturer and work with.



As Benvegas and I have noted, the cost for a product must take into consideration R&D, labels, promotion, labor, warehousing, equipment, etc. But what on earth could possibly justify $500.00 or more? I have no problem with people buying and using that wax. My beef comes with people who claim that because it cost them $500 it is the best wax made, nothing can compare to it...it's superior to any and all waxes.....it has to be because it costs $500.00!!



Anthony
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I think its fair to say that we are at an impass. Those people have noteworthy credentials, and their experience would have been helpful in this discussion. I have absolutely no problem with facts, statements, testimonials for and against lsp products. What I do find a problem with are statements made that are trying to be qualified as absolute facts without documentation behind them to reinforce what the statements actually mean.



I think everything else said, however, about marketing, promotion, etc., even your last statement about the possibility of products being better or superior in features, are good statements that can lead a meaningful debate. Everyone is entitled to their views and opinion, but I just advise that people should be objective in their comments and relate them to the context which they were derived from.



In the end, all of us are going to use the product that produced the results for us in the past, whether synthetic or natural, entry level priced to exotic to ridiculous.
 
I think it is not nessarily the Carnauba it is the extras in the can that cost the money. A car can only accept x amount of Carnauba. The extras give the looks.
 
SubyDude said:
White carnauba does have greater advantages than yellow alone. It is rare because most companies would rather not spend the extra cash in the refinement process.
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This is the type of myth that needs dispelling. Making the wax white is not a type of "refinement". Refining a wax would include removing impurities and other elements not necessary to the wax itself that provide no features. Changing the color adds nothing and no type of refinement is involved in it. Adding paraffin wax simply adds a cheap wax that does not perform well on a cars clearcoat to good wax to change the color. There are zero added benefits of "White #1" over "Yellow #1" other than marketing hype.
 
benvegas said:
This is the type of myth that needs dispelling. Making the wax white is not a type of "refinement". Refining a wax would include removing impurities and other elements not necessary to the wax itself that provide no features. Changing the color adds nothing and no type of refinement is involved in it. Adding paraffin wax simply adds a cheap wax that does not perform well on a cars clearcoat to good wax to change the color. There are zero added benefits of "White #1" over "Yellow #1" other than marketing hype.
Click to expand...





Instead of just telling me I am wrong where is your back up for this? Why is white only marketing hype? If that is the case why would companies spend so much more money an time to create the "white" if it were only for marketing? Again you are making blanket statements with no backup.



Wax makers don't create white. White or a pale color is a byproduct of the refinement. And who said anything about paraffin? You said bleach is how it is turned white. Are you saying the Paraffin is what does? Of the waxes on the market can you tell me the percent of paraffin that is actually added? And can you without a doubt tell me that all (white) are made with some percent of paraffin? Does Zymol use clorox to bleach there yellow wax white? Seems like everything I have been told and have read says that other ingredients that improve the wax are also what aid in turning it white. Also of note is that some of the best harvested yellow is very pale and almost white to begin with.



So you say the yellow is not refined? Seems like everything I have ever read and been told says it is refined to create a White Carnauba. You are the only person I have ever heard say it is not refined. I'd like to know where you get that and how you prove all the others wrong? Impurities that are aquired during harvesting and drying are removed during the refinement.



I imagine you didn't expect the much debate when you posted originally. But when you start claiming so many things about a product that has been produced for so many years surely you must have known.
 
Hi SubyDude.



Rather than reply with what I believe to be true, I'm going to hold off until Monday when I speak directly with the USA's largest importer of carnauba wax from Brazil and hopefully they can send me more raw data sheets of exactly what is what so it can be clarified and fact produced once and for all.



One thing that is very important to remember is that *all* Carnauba is refined. Carnauba literally grows on trees. The tree leaves are cut between September and February from two areas of Brazil. Once the leaves are cut down, the wax is removed in powder form from the leaves by a machine literally shaking and beating the leaf until the wax is free. The wax is on the exterior of the "leaf". Once the wax is beaten from the leaf, you can imagine all of the garbage on the powdered wax itself. Once the powdered wax leaves Brazil, it is then shipped to the USA for refinement. The refinement removes all of the dirt, bugs, debris, etc., from the powdered wax and makes it into a flake or powder format. The refinement is necessary to qualify wax for food grading and necessary to truly make "Yellow #1".



The initial colors of carnauba are brown to yellow, the color depending only on the age of the leaf it was cut from. The coloring is a natural process that isnt done by man or additives. Since the age of the leaf determines the color of the wax, this is how it is sorted before exportation. Refining the wax does not change its color whatsoever. The color as already mentioned is pre-determined by the leaf's age. The only way to change the waxes color is by bleaching it, or using additives such as paraffin (a naturally white wax). The big question we all have right now, is what happens to qualify wax as "White #1", does "White #1" exist, and does this involve a synthetic refinement or a simple color change.



A few companies claim that it's ultra refined carnauba that is made synthetically. I dont know what this mean. Others claim it's part of a bleaching system where the color is changed, or paraffin wax is added to aid in the color change. I apologize in advance that it's friday at 5pm EST when the wax importer is closed as I post this, but this is the reason I wont have more actual hard data for you until Monday. Once I have a manufacturers data sheet in hand for #1 White Carnauba and its properties I think we can uncover more.



As for debate, debate is great, that's what I love and that's what this forum is meant for. If anything we all learn something and that hurts nobody!



-Ben
 
This post would have been better suited for the very beginning instead of "white is just yellow bleached...ooops!"



Bring all the facts and sheets and so on at the beginning. It will save a lot of valuable bandwidth and needless debate.



Looking forward to Monday.
 
SubyDude,

Zymol described how they processed their white carnauba. The product comes from pale extract from young carnauba leaves. The color isn't really white, but more of a pale off-white Ivory color.



My research that I did several months earlier found several methods to produce what is commonly known as white carnauba (see post #27, and click on the link I attached). I wanted to make clear that the process "IS NOT" a bleaching effect, such as adding a cloride product to a batch of the raw product in a bin, so to speak, which is popularly believed through out the industry. If you see one of the methods in my source, it describes one method of adding benzine (I think....fuzzy so see link) at high temperatures, where a white by product is made.



I've said enough, so just take a look at my link and source. Thanks.
 
benvegas said:
Rather than reply with what I believe to be true, I'm going to hold off until Monday...

-Ben
Click to expand...





And this is the whole issue to the post, you are mixing beliefs with facts and cannot support your data. You are clearly marketing and selling a product, which also puts you in the position of slamming or attacking other products in order to make yours look better. Give us facts and back them up, not dispelling the myths only to admit you believe it to be true. I support prove which equals truth, versus believes which usually mean fiction.
 
onelazydawg said:
And this is the whole issue to the post, you are mixing beliefs with facts and cannot support your data. You are clearly marketing and selling a product, which also puts you in the position of slamming or attacking other products in order to make yours look better. Give us facts and back them up, not dispelling the myths only to admit you believe it to be true. I support prove which equals truth, versus believes which usually mean fiction.
Click to expand...

No, it's not fiction and most everyone here understands that. He may not be 100% on every specific point (and I'm really not qualified to say whether he is or not) but he is knowledgable about carnauba, just not in the automotive wax context. The reason there's so much disagreement here is because it's a lot more complicated than just the carnauba.
 
Give Ben a break. It sounds as if he's on trial or something. I personally found his posts informative, regardless of if every comment is totally 100% correct (and like velobard, I'm not qualified to say one way or the other). If we all had to put up data sheets to prove every point we made, I don't think anyone would post anything here ever.
 
For every post there will always be criticism from one side no matter what. Especially on something like carnauba where a lot of what we think we know is just what we hear. It's unreasonable to think that you can make a statement and have everyone agree with you, even when it's your profession. I'm not always right, so when I'm wrong, tell me and tell me why. Constructive criticism is best.



The whole debate right now is part of an undocumented process of what exactly white carnauba is. Right now, I believe what I have heard being in the industry. I dont use white carnauba in any product and the largest wax importer from Brazils best quality is #1 Yellow. There's no real documentation on what white is, other than speculation and what we've all "heard". Some say refined, some say bleached, some say it's natural. It's cool, we'll figure it out and get to the bottom of it. Then we'll all know the 100% undisputed answers and go from there. After all the thread is about dispelling carnauba myths, this sure sounds like one that is more of a myth than any other.



As for Zymol farming baby carnauba trees for younger leaves, this is quite an interesting idea. I dont know anything about this but just wonder what the benefits are. While the truth regarding yellow carnauba not being "old" as brown carnauba since the leaves are younger, and yellow carnauba is better than brown carnauba for auto waxes, it sounds logical that farming the leaves younger might be better too. Just a guess though, I dont have any idea past that. There obviously must be benefits or Zymol wouldnt go through such a task. I'd be interested to hear more if anyone knows of more information on this.



Cheerio,



-Ben
 
I don't know how this myth can possibly be "dispelled". For every piece of information you find that supports no or negative benefits of white carnauba, Pinnacle, Zymol, etc. and their supporters will fight you that much harder, whether white is "real" or a marketing tool, the companies that use it aren't going to back down from its superiority.



Every piece of "proof" will be refuted, and you will never get a real answer, because it will be "trade secrets". Either way, if Pinnacle, Zymol, etc., have processes that no one else knows about/can duplicate, or if it's all marketing hype, they are going to keep that a secret.
 
This thread has been interesting reading, with some very valid points being raised, however i do think that it has changed direction slightly, in that the 'white' carnauba debate has reared it's ugly head once again!



IMO, the 'White' carnauba that Zymol describes as being used in all of their Estate Glaze formulas, is nothing more than pure marketing genius on Zymol's part.Think about the Marque specific waxes, Japon, Volvo,Jaguar Glaze,Ital Glaze for Italian paints etc,marketing again.



Now, do not get me wrong, i am not 'bashing' Zymol waxes, as i have used them all apart from the Royale Glaze, and as a Carnauba wax lover i currently have several of the Estate Glaze Zymol waxes in my collection.But, having a family conection with one of the 'Rival' High End carnauba wax manufacturers,i am able to state quite categorically that 'White' carnauba wax is not harvested from some 'rare' carnauba palm, in other words it is made, and not extracted.



The sale of carnauba wax is strictly controlled by the Brazillian Government, as is the harvesting and grading procedures.I think it would be just a little to far fetched to think that Zymol, or any other wax maker could have their own 'farms' of carnauba palms, in order to produce their own, special formulas, it would never be possible, and the brazillian Government would not allow it.Finally 'White' carnauba wax does not appear on any list from the authorities in brazil, as a commercially available 'grade' of carnauba wax for sale.
 
As promised.......



I've had discussions with numerous individuals over the last few days regarding "white" carnauba now and have what I consider to be the final answer on the subject. My sources for the information are Strahl & Pitsch, wax importers to the USA since 1904. Since they have over 100 years of experience with carnauba and supply most major wax manufacturers, I consider them *the* source of accurate information.



Bottom line: White carnauba does not exist, however natural and synthetic carnauba can be modified/made to look whiter.



As discussed earlier, carnauba grades are by color of the wax, and the color of the wax is determined by the age of the leaf from the tree. The older the tree gets the more oxidized the carnauba on the leaf gets and the darker and uglier the carnauba gets. The color comes from the regular oxidation and natural anti-oxidants such as beta carotine that are present in the leaves.



The youngest leaf you can cut is around one year old when it actually produces wax. Farming "baby leaves" is not possible. The baby leaves have no carnauba on them and the very first amounts of carnauba a baby leaf will have is already yellow in color. It is never possible to get "white" carnauba off of a baby leaf.



White carnauba *is* produced by using quantities of bleach. This is not refining. There is no refinement possible to change the color. This process provides nothing good and nothing bad. However, this is not the only source of producing "white" carnauba. The other source is by using synthetic carnauba. Synthetic carnauba is is carnauba that is close to the white-ish color. Since alcohol gives carnauba its hardness (naturally), if you use an alcohol from a synthetic source, you have a synthetic carnauba. Is a synthetic white better than a natural yellow? There is no answer to this. Surely it has pros and cons when compared to a natural carnauba. Adding paraffin wax to carnauba to lighten the color is something that is possible but not commonly done as it degrades the quality of the end product. However, this is one way to produce "whiter" colored carnauba.



There are no data sheets to post since white carnauba isnt sold and isnt a product. Any skeptics may wish to call SP directly if they so choose, or find actual quantifiable data otherwise to the contrary and post it here.



-Ben
 
I'm sorry, but that is not going to cut it. First of all, it is universally known that the grade of carnauba farmed from Brazil is rated starting at Yellow #1.



Second, the information you gathered is from a supposedly well known importer. Not a problem. The problem is that the importer ships the product. This importer is not a manufacturer, or a physicist, or a chemical analyst or scientist that has a knowledge of the chemistry and the composition of carnauba and any or most natural waxes, and the industry formulation of wax consumer products.



My source in post #27 was published by a chemical scientist that had done extensive research and analysis of many forms of waxes, and according to his text, the method that was described in his book seriously contradicts what you are saying that this importer describes as being the method of manufacturing "white carnauba."



I appreciate the time that you spent looking into this subject matter, but I am afraid that without a more in-depth research or study that's been documented as proof of the "bleaching" of the carnauba compound, I do not find that the opinion of this established shipper is valid.
 
Bleaching of carnuba is quite well known to some manufacturers, however this is not the only way to create "white carnuba"...It is just a cheaper method from what I have read.
 
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