Can you tell the Difference (pic)

Built on adjacent assembly lines? They share the same basic underpinnings and engines. Sound isolation, paint and other goodies are all part of the up sell.
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This information is not correct at all. My car was built in Tahara, Japan and my wife's Camry is from Georgetown, Kentucky. They also have VERY different levels of sound insulation. The paint process has an extra stage and is visually inspected more.
 
Okay lets talk about towels again.



To be really honest I received two green Viper towels from my first online purchase back in December of 2002. Later in 2003 I purchased some Pakshak towels.



I like the Pakshaks, but the Vipers are so much thicker. I wonder if they're still around at all. I reserve them for taking off LSP now. :)
 
Of course these towels are all bought from suppliers, and it's not surpirsing that some overlap. Most of these contracts with Korean suppliers are not exclusive and therefore you will find same towels branded by different stores. All these places get towels for a lot less than they sell them for, so if the product is good enough that the store can sell it for twice as much as another, good for them! I'm glad to know about how nice the ones from Specialty motoring are though :woohoo:



Toyota owns and founded Lexus, so the situation is completely different from the microfiber one. IMO the differences between the Camry and ES are minor and superficial. They are built on the exact same chassis, available with the same V6, and almost everything about the cars are similar. Having the same underpinnings is not just a "minor' similarity--what actually goes into the heart of the car is more than you think. The only differences I have found between the cars is that the Lexus has more sound insulation, a more luxurious cockpit (though still coated leather :think: ), suspension tweaked a bit more toward a floaty ride, the cache that goes along with the badge, added weight due to all of the above, and about $6000. It's like an upgraded Toyota Camry--but it's still essentially the same car. It's the same relationship that the Caddilac Escalade shares with the Chevy Tahoe, the Lincoln Town Car with the Ford Crown Vic, the new Saab 9-2 with the Subaru Impreza, the Acura TSX with the Euro-spec Honda Accord, the Acura MDX with the Honda Pilot, and many, many others. The luxury versions might be a bit different, but the car itself is not much changed.
 
IMO the differences between the Camry and ES are minor and superficial. They are built on the exact same chassis, available with the same V6, and almost everything about the cars are similar.
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As someone who owns both of these cars, I feel I need to set the record straight. They are very different as anyone who has driven any of the recent models can tell you. Their is a gulf of difference in the after-sale experience as well. The coating of leather is fairly standard now in the luxury car business but at least in my Lexus it leaves the seat quite soft and comfy. Most auto critics consider the ES seats to be among the best out there. The transmission and engine tuning are completely different between the two cars as well. The suspension has not been tweaked toward a floatier ride, in fact the opposite.



The Lexus costs a lot more but you get a much better dealership experience, better reliability stats (the Camrys of 2001 and 2002 were very problematic - GM hired away some of the quality control team in Kentucky), better resale value, far more luxury items, better fit and finish, better stereo (WAY better with the Levinson) better paint, better handling, better acceleration, quieter interior, better interior/exterior design, and best of all consistent JD Power Survey leadership. That was well worth $10K to me.



Maintenance on our Camry has been a multiple of that for the Lexus. The bumper paint has faded, the driver door handle broke in half! (my wife's not that strong), engine parts have failed, and the car is noisy.
 
Everyone, who want a little bit of insight into car-platform strategy:



A carmaker wants to sell and gain big. Platform strategy – when done right – can enhance the possibilities of a manufacturer by giving different personalities to its brands. In platform engineering, when the same platform serves a variety of models (from sports cars to family haulers), there may be some danger for customers, when the driving feel of these models is too similar.

What can we expect from cars that share their platforms and major systems? If the overall quality of their feel is adequately good, customers will not be deprived in choosing one of these cars – from different brands – that use those parts.

A stage in a theater is the most evident example of a platform. It’s a simple floor on which various scenes – each of them is distinct, with its own tradition and history – can be mounted for the pleasure of the audience. The dynamic components, such as the actors, singers are often the same, but no one complains, just as no one will complain about cars that use the same bits, so long as the emotional result is what is expected.

The artists who will assure the correct emotional results are not the accountants, financial analysts or production engineers who implement platform programs, but the creative designers and engineers who give form and substance to the cars that the public will (or will not) buy. As an example, think of all the different ways water could be marketed – as thirst quencher, plant food, fire retardant, cleaner, coolant, boat floater, etc.

An individual buyer’s enthusiasm for a certain character in a car actually depends on that last five percent of pure essence, not on manufacturing rationality.

The reputation of the manufacturers tend to really predispose people toward one or another make. Not everybody is actually capable of analyzing the merits of a vehicle, so people tend to buy just brands.

People come into decision with experience and expectations and that often includes an aggregate sense of the products themselves. The brands therefore, are very powerful influences.



Indeed, the ES330 IS the mechanical twin of the Camry/RX330/Sienna/Highlander etc. family. The basic architecture is the same, and the bodies/interiors are trimmed/styled to their respective brands. Often cars are soo similar that they differ in sheetmetal/interior only, and all of their mechanicals are absolutely identical. Of course, minor differences, such as bushing characteristics, damping, and stabilizer bar settings are needed to suit the brand but these are often negligible.



You want twins? Here they are (same platform/architecture and same drivetrains):



- Bentley Continental/Flying Spur/VW Phaeton

- Lincoln Zephyr/Mazda 6/Mercury Milan/Ford Fusion

- Volvo S40/C70/Mazda 3/Ford Focus

- Audi A3/VW Golf/Jetta/Passat/Touran/Caddy/Golf Plus/Eos/Seat Leon/Altea/Toledo/next Audi TT/Ã… koda Octavia

- Infiniti M/FX/G/Nissan Z

- Cadillac XLR/Corvette C6

- Mitsubishi Colt/Smart Forfour

- Jaguar S-Type/Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird

- Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra, Chevy Malibu Maxx, Saturn Aura/Pontiac G6



etc., etc.
 
are these the mega plush from SMP that you are comparing? I notice the size is only 16x16 from the site. I'm thinking of ordering some and just want to be sure which one to get.
 
Intercooled said:
Yeah, the new Jeff Werkstat products make me laugh!
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Why? Carlack isn't available in the US. What's wrong with an importer adding his own name to the product he's importing. Zaino seems extremely similar to some of the Japanese polymer products as well as Duragloss. Maybe they all come from the same factory as well :nixweiss
 
SMP towel are 16x16 for the mega flush but they also carry the soft edge towel 16x24 for the same price. From looking at the pic I think the Cobra is 16x24 I just want to make sure which one he is referring to. I purchased the Cobra mf and would like to try out SMP for half the price.
 
Bence said:
Everyone, who want a little bit of insight into car-platform strategy:



A carmaker wants to sell and gain big. Platform strategy – when done right – can enhance the possibilities of a manufacturer by giving different personalities to its brands. In platform engineering, when the same platform serves a variety of models (from sports cars to family haulers), there may be some danger for customers, when the driving feel of these models is too similar.

What can we expect from cars that share their platforms and major systems? If the overall quality of their feel is adequately good, customers will not be deprived in choosing one of these cars – from different brands – that use those parts.

A stage in a theater is the most evident example of a platform. It’s a simple floor on which various scenes – each of them is distinct, with its own tradition and history – can be mounted for the pleasure of the audience. The dynamic components, such as the actors, singers are often the same, but no one complains, just as no one will complain about cars that use the same bits, so long as the emotional result is what is expected.

The artists who will assure the correct emotional results are not the accountants, financial analysts or production engineers who implement platform programs, but the creative designers and engineers who give form and substance to the cars that the public will (or will not) buy. As an example, think of all the different ways water could be marketed – as thirst quencher, plant food, fire retardant, cleaner, coolant, boat floater, etc.

An individual buyer’s enthusiasm for a certain character in a car actually depends on that last five percent of pure essence, not on manufacturing rationality.

The reputation of the manufacturers tend to really predispose people toward one or another make. Not everybody is actually capable of analyzing the merits of a vehicle, so people tend to buy just brands.

People come into decision with experience and expectations and that often includes an aggregate sense of the products themselves. The brands therefore, are very powerful influences.



Indeed, the ES330 IS the mechanical twin of the Camry/RX330/Sienna/Highlander etc. family. The basic architecture is the same, and the bodies/interiors are trimmed/styled to their respective brands. Often cars are soo similar that they differ in sheetmetal/interior only, and all of their mechanicals are absolutely identical. Of course, minor differences, such as bushing characteristics, damping, and stabilizer bar settings are needed to suit the brand but these are often negligible.



You want twins? Here they are (same platform/architecture and same drivetrains):



- Bentley Continental/Flying Spur/VW Phaeton

- Lincoln Zephyr/Mazda 6/Mercury Milan/Ford Fusion

- Volvo S40/C70/Mazda 3/Ford Focus

- Audi A3/VW Golf/Jetta/Passat/Touran/Caddy/Golf Plus/Eos/Seat Leon/Altea/Toledo/next Audi TT/Ã… koda Octavia

- Infiniti M/FX/G/Nissan Z

- Cadillac XLR/Corvette C6

- Mitsubishi Colt/Smart Forfour

- Jaguar S-Type/Lincoln LS/Ford Thunderbird

- Saab 9-3, Opel Vectra, Chevy Malibu Maxx, Saturn Aura/Pontiac G6



etc., etc.
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Excellent post Bence! There are tons more of examples, too (pick just about any car in the GM lineup and Ill find you a brand-engineered twin!)
 
Ok lets put the ES/Camry thing to bed.



Here's the almighty Wiki definition

of the ES/Camry. While the same platform, they are not competing vehicles and are placed in different ranges. It would be naive to call them the same. Kind of like calling a Cadillac a Buick.



Hey Bence, nice list of cars. Just out of curiosity do you have a source list? Everything seems dead on for what I've read and been involved in.

Soon we'll see a GM badge on everything that GM owns. For 2006 they are going to place a small square GM badge on every car they produce. The goal is to improve brand recognition. I'm not sure thats the greatest marketing move right now.. :(



Oh and the Saturn thing, regardless of why GM took a blind approach, they still did it, and in a very "covert' way. I understand it was to try and push into the Japanese marketshare in the US, but who did they think they were kidding? :D
 
chpsk8 said:
Oh and the Saturn thing, regardless of why GM took a blind approach, they still did it, and in a very "covert' way. I understand it was to try and push into the Japanese marketshare in the US, but who did they think they were kidding? :D
Click to expand...



Um...the entire non-enthusiast market? I shocked a woman I work with earlier this year, who had no idea, 15 years on, that Saturn was part of GM.
 
SilverLexus said:
This information is not correct at all. My car was built in Tahara, Japan and my wife's Camry is from Georgetown, Kentucky. They also have VERY different levels of sound insulation. The paint process has an extra stage and is visually inspected more.
Click to expand...



Sir, I stand corrected about the place of assembly. I was thinking about the Avalon.



I know that Lexus owner pay a decent chunk of change more for their cars than the Camry owners BUT, you will find many parts that interchange from one car to the other. That's not a bad thing as that keeps the Lexus owner from paying lots more for their cars. If you were to see both the cars without any body panels, I'm sure you'd need to be an assembly line worker to tell the difference.
 
chpsk8 said:
Ok lets put the ES/Camry thing to bed.



Here's the almighty Wiki definition

of the ES/Camry. While the same platform, they are not competing vehicles and are placed in different ranges. It would be naive to call them the same. Kind of like calling a Cadillac a Buick.
Click to expand...

Really not following your logic on this one. Because an on-line free encyclopedia says that the two cars are in different market segments then they can't be mechanically very similar cars?? Your logic seems a little off on this one.
 
so back to towels...which one is the same on the SMP site? Looks to me like their most plush one would be the Mega Plush MF Towels and that is only 16x16 and if thats the same then the price would match ish (twice the size, twice the price). Unless your talking about the Soft Edge Microfiber Detailing Towels. And if thats so then that makes me wonder how plush the Mega Plush is.
 
And back off topic... I like the guys with Trans Ams that think their cars are faster and better built than Camaros. lol If anything its the other way around because of weight. They never believe me when I say they are the same in every way other than apperance and they are made on the exact same lines as Camaros. Now the engines in the cars, well they are pretty different car to car, but not model specific, pretty random.
 
:hairpull NO SMP has the MEGA PLUSH which are Poorboy's But Scott also has the Soft Edge 16x24 http://www.specialtymotoring.com/microfiber.htm which is on the Picture i took. also the Pro Wax applicators are the same ones that autogeek has for a much cheaper price. I know this because i just got both my order shipped last week. I even took the Pic of the MF 16x24 that Autogeek has for 7$ :hairpull both arwe the same along with the MF applicators pads. Scott P of SMP has them much cheaper that Autogeek.net :idea You guys can try it and when you get them you will be mad @ the fact than autogeek.net which has them for 7$ compared to 3.79$ @ SMP :woohoo:
 
Pontman43 said:
They never believe me when I say they are the same in every way other than apperance and they are made on the exact same lines as Camaros.
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:shocked Now that's just ignorant!



More examples of brand engineering:



Pontiac GTO/Holden Monaro

Chevy Trailblazer/GMC Envoy/Isuzu Ascender/Buick Rainier/Saab 9-7X

Chevy Suburban/GMC Yukon XL/Caddilac Escalade EXT

Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon/Caddilac Escalade/Hummer H2

Chevy Avalanche/Caddilac Escalade ESV

Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon/Hummer H3

Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra

Toyota Land Cruiser/Lexus LX470 (they barely even bothered to change the sheetmetal!)

Toyota Altezza (jpn)/last-gen Lexus IS

Ford Fusion/Madza 6/Lincoln Zephyr/Mercury Milan

Ford Crown Vic/Mercury Grand Marquis/Lincoln Town Car

Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable

Ford F150/Lincoln Mark LT

Ford Explorer/Merc Mountaineer/Lincoln Aviator/Land Rover LR3 (modified though)

Ford Expedition/Lincoln Navigator

Ford Ranger/Mazda B-series

Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego/Volvo S60/V70/S80/XC70/XC90/Ford Freestyle

Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner/Mazda Tribute

Ford Freestar/Mercury Monterey

Ford Focus (euro)/Mazda3/Volvo S40 and V50/Mazda5

Ford Mondeo (euro)/Jaguar X-type/Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique/Cougar

Chevy Cobalt/Saturn Ion/Chevy HHR

Chevy Malibu/Saab 9-3/Pontiac G6

Pontiac Bonneville/Buick LeSabre

Chevy Impala and Monte Carlo/Pontiac Grand Prix/Buick LaCrosse

Pontiac Solstice/upcoming Saturn Sky

Pontiac Aztek/Buick Rendezvous

Saab 9-2X/Subaru Impreza WRX wagon

Chevy Equinox/Saturn Vue/Pontiac Torrent/Suzuki Grand Vitara (the new one)

Chevy Uplander/Pontiac Montana/Saturn Relay/Buick Terraza

Chrysler Town and Country/Dodge Caravan

Chrysler Sebring/Dodge Stratus/Mitsubishi Eclipse and Galant

Chrysler Concorde and LHS/Dodge Intrepid

Chrysler 300/Dodge Magnum and Charger

Dodge Dakota/Mitsubishi Raider/Dodge Durango

Toyota 4Runner/Lexus GX470

Toyota Highlander/Lexus RX/Toyota Camry/Lexus ES330

Toyota Corolla/Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe

Acura MDX/Honda Pilot

Honda Accord (euro)/Acura TSX

Honda Civic(last gen)/Honda Integra (euro)/Acura RSX

Ferarri Enzo/Maserati MC12

Nissan Armada/Infinity QX45

Infinity G/Nissan Z

VW Tourag/Porsche Cayenne



There are more out there, too, I just can't think of them right now...
 
SilverLexus said:
As someone who owns both of these cars, I feel I need to set the record straight. They are very different as anyone who has driven any of the recent models can tell you. Their is a gulf of difference in the after-sale experience as well. The coating of leather is fairly standard now in the luxury car business but at least in my Lexus it leaves the seat quite soft and comfy. Most auto critics consider the ES seats to be among the best out there. The transmission and engine tuning are completely different between the two cars as well. The suspension has not been tweaked toward a floatier ride, in fact the opposite.



The Lexus costs a lot more but you get a much better dealership experience, better reliability stats (the Camrys of 2001 and 2002 were very problematic - GM hired away some of the quality control team in Kentucky), better resale value, far more luxury items, better fit and finish, better stereo (WAY better with the Levinson) better paint, better handling, better acceleration, quieter interior, better interior/exterior design, and best of all consistent JD Power Survey leadership. That was well worth $10K to me.



Maintenance on our Camry has been a multiple of that for the Lexus. The bumper paint has faded, the driver door handle broke in half! (my wife's not that strong), engine parts have failed, and the car is noisy.
Click to expand...

So whats so hard to admit that you payed 8k more for a camry with different styling and a nicer interior? What you should have said is marginally better acceleration and handling. The es330 has a whopping 8 more hp compared to the camry se v6. Same tranny as well.



Lorne
 
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