Can this be fixed up? (scratches on bumper)

[David Fermani]

We can argue back and forth about what’s right and what’s wrong but bottom line blending, burning or melting clear coat within a panel(especially one that isn't removed and de-trimed) is not only an improper repair, but one that is not supported/warranteed by any paint manufacturer, insurance company or professional body shop. Period! If you want to feel passionate about doing the wrong thing for the sake of building a false sense of uneducated approval from an uninformed customer then go right ahead. But just because you’re able to fool customers and get away with it certainly does not make it right. There will always be a never ending market of people looking for the cheap way out and putting up blinders for what is right, but that’s human nature. That’s why there’s plenty of products on the market that can assist someone that wants to capitalize on this inferior practice. Autopia and its high standard is about sharing, discussing and doing the right thing. People that want and deserve the right result should certainly avoid the improper practice of clear coat blending. It’s not a normal practice for a reputable painter/body shop and will not last no matter what anyone says. There is no magical way to do an inferior job. I wouldn’t want it done on my car and I certainly wouldn’t advocate doing it on a customer’s car.



This isn’t just my opinion, it’s the entire paint industry’s too:



Ford: Clearcoat Blending Procedure Not Recommended - Industry Info - Refinish



http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish/en/oem/manuals/Documents/toyota_info_65.pdf



http://www.collisionadvice.com/2010_consulting_forms_2010/BASF Clear Coat Blending Memo.pdf



https://www.basfrefinish.com/cap_data_docs/documentum/RM/Bulletins/English/RMBUL2097-E Tech Tip.pdf



http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html...roduct/dr/ChromaSystem/H-19279_ClearBlend.pdf



How to Blend Clear Coat | Auto Body Repair Work



Open Clearcoat Blends



http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/sph/SpiesHecker/1031_07.pdf



http://roadtowater.com/downloads/tds autowave spot repair.pdf

 

[Dan]

Nice. Had a pleasant response back and lost it.



In short. It doesn't matter what you think, if you think an educated client making a choice is retarded. It's not your job to decide for anyone else.



And being passive aggressive is not polite. It's rude and insulting(I get the feeling that's what you're going for). If you're passive aggressive with your customers(whatever you do, detailing or otherwise) and you believe that's polite, you won't be around long.

Take it for what you want, I'm not going to agree with you. You want to throw in jabs like "we're adults" and putting words in my mouth (retards), go for it. You have a vested interest in promoting spot repairs. There just isn't anything more to say, other than I totally agree with your sig:



"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. -Benjamin Franklin"

 

[Accumulator]

One of the few areas (maybe two areas, to be specific ) where David Fermani and I disagree (Flashtime and I are at odds on this too) is the subject of spot-repair/"blending".



Yeah, I've read the TSBs and I know the manufacturers don't recommend it. Yeah, I understand why. No, I'm not saying everybody oughta do it or have it done.



And yeah, my vehicles are not treated "normally", they're all quite pampered, even the beaters so YMMV in a huge way. And no, I won't be surprised if somebody else's blended repair fails.



All that said, I have blended spot-repairs that are still 100% fine after many years, well over a decade in some cases (much longer with some ss paints, but AFAIK we're talking b/c here). Lots of variables...and FWIW, the guys who do my paintwork would simply redo any such repairs that ever caused me displeasure. And it's not like just any highly experienced pro can do paintwork for me



Heh heh, I know David and others are gonna that I posted the above (again), but hey...I'm living with these repairs and I'm a big fan of first-hand experience.



But one thing (out of many) that David and I are in complete agreement on is how beneficial it is to disassemble things when repainting. As I like to say (and my painters just nod in agreement), "they didn't use masking tape when they painted it at the factory".

 

[Jean-Claude]

Take it for what you want, I'm not going to agree with you. You want to throw in jabs like "we're adults" and putting words in my mouth (retards), go for it. You have a vested interest in promoting spot repairs. There just isn't anything more to say, other than I totally agree with your sig:



"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. -Benjamin Franklin"

That's not a jab. That's frankly calling your rude attitude out without being sarcastic back.



Retarded? Ok, stupid, moronic, idiotic...whatever word you would describe a customer making choice being foolish as. /roll my eyes



I can accept that we agree to disagree. David feels as strongly as you do and there are multiple guys here that agree with me. The end result is what does the customer want? I hate to break it to you but people love the service, it looks good and it can last a long time if done with care. Thankfully, my services aren't dependent on what other detailers find appealing. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and they stink.

 

[Jean-Claude]

When they ask me how long it will last and I tell them there is no guarantee but rather what we have experienced, that's not fooling anyone. When we tell them that they will see 90-100% visual results compared to a body shop and if it doesn't look good to them they don't pay a dime, that's not fooling anyone(I always get paid). When we explain the process as compared to a body shop, that's not fooling anyone.



Take a moment and think real hard before you start claiming I am fooling anyone when you have no damn idea what my customers are told about the quality and results they will get. You should be ashamed to flagrantly attempt to slander my name because you don't agree with the service. I used to have respect for you but have lost every ounce of it.



Didn't you build somewhat of a business model on dealership "detailing"? If so, I find it an absolute riot that you could knock any service I offer.

We can argue back and forth about what’s right and what’s wrong but bottom line blending, burning or melting clear coat within a panel(especially one that isn't removed and de-trimed) is not only an improper repair, but one that is not supported/warranteed by any paint manufacturer, insurance company or professional body shop. Period! If you want to feel passionate about doing the wrong thing for the sake of building a false sense of uneducated approval from an uninformed customer then go right ahead. But just because you’re able to fool customers and get away with it certainly does not make it right. There will always be a never ending market of people looking for the cheap way out and putting up blinders for what is right, but that’s human nature. That’s why there’s plenty of products on the market that can assist someone that wants to capitalize on this inferior practice. Autopia and its high standard is about sharing, discussing and doing the right thing. People that want and deserve the right result should certainly avoid the improper practice of clear coat blending. It’s not a normal practice for a reputable painter/body shop and will not last no matter what anyone says. There is no magical way to do an inferior job. I wouldn’t want it done on my car and I certainly wouldn’t advocate doing it on a customer’s car.



This isn’t just my opinion, it’s the entire paint industry’s too:



Ford: Clearcoat Blending Procedure Not Recommended - Industry Info - Refinish



http://www.ppg.com/coatings/refinish/en/oem/manuals/Documents/toyota_info_65.pdf



http://www.collisionadvice.com/2010_consulting_forms_2010/BASF Clear Coat Blending Memo.pdf



https://www.basfrefinish.com/cap_data_docs/documentum/RM/Bulletins/English/RMBUL2097-E Tech Tip.pdf



http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html...roduct/dr/ChromaSystem/H-19279_ClearBlend.pdf



How to Blend Clear Coat | Auto Body Repair Work



Open Clearcoat Blends



http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/visitor/common/pdfs/b/product/sph/SpiesHecker/1031_07.pdf



http://roadtowater.com/downloads/tds autowave spot repair.pdf

 

[Final Touch]

The classic thing about the links posted by David is that they state that blending clear's is a big no-no then they go on to give their recommendations on how to do it.

With proper preparation clears can be blended without any issue otherwise the manufacturers would insist that it be sanded completely and every paint repair have a complete refinish edge to edge with no blending anywhere whatsoever to ensure proper adhesion but they know that their colour matching systems will not get a 100% match every time edge to edge so there's no getting away from blending. I'm also struggling to understand how adding extra clear can compromise the thickness...



With that being said, IMHO getting quality spot blending in the middle of full size panels is next to impossible. Performing quality repairs relies on knowing when it's appropriate to use Micro blend techniques and also knowing when complete re-finish is a better option and repairing appropriately

 

[David Fermani]

Anyone who thinks that quality micro blends are hack-work no matter what needs to learn a bit more about them. When you get experts like John K (House of Kolor) teaching quys how to blend candy's etc... for a high quality, lower cost repair on custom paintwork it's a better recommendation than 'industry standard' which is just that. Designed to standardise repair costs so that insurance companies can work within prescribed guidelines and budgets to ensure a uniformity accross all their approved repairers. It takes very little into account on the basis of small repairs that would typically fall beneath the 'excess' threshold. Therefore in NZ at least Bumper repairs are $450 including on and off etc... but there are plenty of top quality paintshops that will blend on the car for much less when the repairs are minor with no durability problems and guaranteed, often for less than the cost of a customers excess.

If the paintwork isn't lasting it's either rubbish product or poor prep work.



Where does this 20 year stuff come into play. Mercedes Menz has recently introduced a 20 year body warranty from factory and I believe they are/were the first to do so. 20 years is a big ask for any finish. I bet your house gets painted more often than that.

This has zero to do with Insurance companies. So you’re saying that “micro blends” are designed to help insurance companies reduce their costs? You’ve have got to be kidding me? I’d like to know of one Insurance Company that will endorce, promote, or estimate for burning, melting or spot clearing a panel. It makes no difference what the cost is and whether or not it’s “beneath the excess threshold” (i.e. deductible).

One of the few areas (maybe two areas, to be specific ) where David Fermani and I disagree (Flashtime and I are at odds on this too) is the subject of spot-repair/"blending".



Yeah, I've read the TSBs and I know the manufacturers don't recommend it. Yeah, I understand why. No, I'm not saying everybody oughta do it or have it done.



And yeah, my vehicles are not treated "normally", they're all quite pampered, even the beaters so YMMV in a huge way. And no, I won't be surprised if somebody else's blended repair fails.



All that said, I have blended spot-repairs that are still 100% fine after many years, well over a decade in some cases (much longer with some ss paints, but AFAIK we're talking b/c here). Lots of variables...and FWIW, the guys who do my paintwork would simply redo any such repairs that ever caused me displeasure. And it's not like just any highly experienced pro can do paintwork for me



Heh heh, I know David and others are gonna that I posted the above (again), but hey...I'm living with these repairs and I'm a big fan of first-hand experience.



But one thing (out of many) that David and I are in complete agreement on is how beneficial it is to disassemble things when repainting. As I like to say (and my painters just nod in agreement), "they didn't use masking tape when they painted it at the factory".

I looked through all of Flashtime’s posts(1000 of them) and didn’t see any discussion about this. :nixweiss The search function is still not back to normal. :har: I’ll try PMing Flashtime to see if he can lend his experience to this whole discussion. Are you referring to blending of the color coat/single stage or clear coat? Isn’t your Jag single stage? Did Stoddard do a clear blend and if so on what part of your car?

I can accept that we agree to disagree. David feels as strongly as you do and there are multiple guys here that agree with me. The end result is what does the customer want? I hate to break it to you but people love the service, it looks good and it can last a long time if done with care. Thankfully, my services aren't dependent on what other detailers find appealing. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one and they stink.

That’s maybe because we both have Body Shop backgrounds which forces us to prescribe to the same level of thinking about this subject. The people that are in agreement with you are more or less mobile painters like the person you use. If this type of repair was actually credible why don’t you think Insurance companies and Body Shops would agree to it? I see and adjust for 100’s of minor bumper repairs each year & I’d look like a hero if I could save us and our customers tons of money by writing for a spot repair on their car when most have a $500 deductible. I’d probably loose my job, but I’d be saving people money. What the heck!

When they ask me how long it will last and I tell them there is no guarantee but rather what we have experienced, that's not fooling anyone. When we tell them that they will see 90-100% visual results compared to a body shop and if it doesn't look good to them they don't pay a dime, that's not fooling anyone(I always get paid). When we explain the process as compared to a body shop, that's not fooling anyone.



Take a moment and think real hard before you start claiming I am fooling anyone when you have no damn idea what my customers are told about the quality and results they will get. You should be ashamed to flagrantly attempt to slander my name because you don't agree with the service. I used to have respect for you but have lost every ounce of it.

Sorry you feel this way. I always thought you were a high end, no holds barred kind of guy. I’ve done nothing to slander your name. You’ve done a fine job doing this on your own.



If you feel so strongly about this being a proper repair and “it lasts well over 10 years” why not give your customers a warranty then? Reputable Body Shops do. Seems like a double standard and talking out of both sides of your mouth. You must subscribe to the same school of thought as Burger King (Have it your way)? If you focus on doing the right thing you shouldn’t have to backpeddle an inferior service to get the sale. One guy says it’s totally undetectable, you say it’s 90% compared to a proper job from a body shop? Which is it? When people say this it’s usually designed for the person who doesn’t know the difference and in real world industry terms might be around 50-60%. Especially on a pearl/3 stage job like the OP. The cost in materials allowed to do that job alone(correctly) would be $125. Someone doing the entire job for $300 means this (C):

Didn't you build somewhat of a business model on dealership "detailing"? If so, I find it an absolute riot that you could knock any service I offer.

I’m not too sure how you can compare reconditioning dealer cars to doing spot repairs on bumpers? Although the system you utilize is embrassed strongly by the dealer community. Mainly because they don’t care about high quality and long term results. Doing work on Used dealer cars that are on the lot for less than 90 days is a whole different ballgame than doing body work or detailing for retail clients that will potentially be keeping their cars for multiple years. My conscious was totally clear because what I did was the right thing. My dealer clients knew exactly what they were getting and I actually delivered beyond those expectations. That why in the 10 years of servicing over 15 dealers I didn’t loose a single account which is unheard of in this industry. So much so that it also allowed me to successfully market the sale of my business for a 500% ROI. My retail clients received an upgraded service with an upgraded price structure. All my people were properly trained utilizing the industry’s top chemical manufacturer’s system which I adapted into one of the most practical and professional workflows available during that time.

The classic thing about the links posted by David is that they state that blending clear's is a big no-no then they go on to give their recommendations on how to do it.

Why wouldn’t paint manufacturers explain how to use a product they sell? I don’t see how that makes them guilty of advocating doing inferior practices? That's why they all say it’s not the right repair and will not be warranted. There will always be people wanting to take shortcuts. That the nature of the Auto Repair industry. Detail supply companies sell glazes that are made to fill imperfections. Does that dismiss their credibility somehow? If paint manufacturers, I-CAR, or any other credible industry source thought blending/burning/melting clear was a proper repair they’d stand behind the end result? I guess you know more than paint manufactures?

With proper preparation clears can be blended without any issue otherwise the manufacturers would insist that it be sanded completely and every paint repair have a complete refinish edge to edge with no blending anywhere whatsoever to ensure proper adhesion but they know that their colour matching systems will not get a 100% match every time edge to edge so there's no getting away from blending. I'm also struggling to understand how adding extra clear can compromise the thickness...



With that being said, IMHO getting quality spot blending in the middle of full size panels is next to impossible. Performing quality repairs relies on knowing when it's appropriate to use Micro blend techniques and also knowing when complete re-finish is a better option and repairing appropriately

Blending color prior to clear is totally a different subject than spot clearing a panel. I don’t understand the logic behind saying it’s not ok to blend clear in the center of a panel but it is on an edge? Especially with the 3 stage pearl the OP has on their Lexus. When prepping a panel for refinish(clear) you’re not scuffing into the color which means there should be no concern about adjacent panel mismatch? Paint manufacturers do state that every panel needs to be prepped/refinished to an approved break point. That means edge to edge with clear. That has nothing to do with the color coat? Burning/melting/blending clear is never the better option when quality is your main focus.

 

[Jean-Claude]

That’s maybe because we both have Body Shop backgrounds which forces us to prescribe to the same level of thinking about this subject. The people that are in agreement with you are more or less mobile painters like the person you use. If this type of repair was actually credible why don’t you think Insurance companies and Body Shops would agree to it? I see and adjust for 100’s of minor bumper repairs each year & I’d look like a hero if I could save us and our customers tons of money by writing for a spot repair on their car when most have a $500 deductible. I’d probably loose my job, but I’d be saving people money. What the heck!



If you feel so strongly about this being a proper repair and “it lasts well over 10 years” why not give your customers a warranty then? Reputable Body Shops do. Seems like a double standard and talking out of both sides of your mouth. You must subscribe to the same school of thought as Burger King (Have it your way)? If you focus on doing the right thing you shouldn’t have to backpeddle an inferior service to get the sale. One guy says it’s totally undetectable, you say it’s 90% compared to a proper job from a body shop? Which is it? When people say this it’s usually designed for the person who doesn’t know the difference and in real world industry terms might be around 50-60%. Especially on a pearl/3 stage job like the OP. The cost in materials allowed to do that job alone(correctly) would be $125. Someone doing the entire job for $300 means this (C):



I’m not too sure how you can compare reconditioning dealer cars to doing spot repairs on bumpers? Although the system you utilize is embrassed strongly by the dealer community. Mainly because they don’t care about high quality and long term results. Doing work on Used dealer cars that are on the lot for less than 90 days is a whole different ballgame than doing body work or detailing for retail clients that will potentially be keeping their cars for multiple years. My conscious was totally clear because what I did was the right thing. My dealer clients knew exactly what they were getting and I actually delivered beyond those expectations. That why in the 10 years of servicing over 15 dealers I didn’t loose a single account which is unheard of in this industry. So much so that it also allowed me to successfully market the sale of my business for a 500% ROI. My retail clients received an upgraded service with an upgraded price structure. All my people were properly trained utilizing the industry’s top chemical manufacturer’s system which I adapted into one of the most practical and professional workflows available during that time.

So you think that body shops never blend a bumper repair? Uh huh...



Don't put words in my mouth. I never claim to my clients that it will last 10 years. I told you what they are told in regard to its durability. If you chose to ignore that and create a phantom argument, be my guest.



The price? Dude, stretch this out as far as you want but I have not given a price on a pearl paint fix for you to criticize. Again, you're making a phantom argument.



So it's ok for you to sell whatever services to a dealership that may not be ideal because they are only looking for an inexpensive fix that doesn't necessarily last as long as the more expensive fix but it's crooked for me to openly do the same?(Ironically, the end dealership customer had no idea they may have paid good money for a fix they didn't know was less than ideal) I said nothing about conscience, I spoke of the hypocrisy.



It's super duper clear that you don't like the service. This is the bottom line, whether the right synapses fire or not, they want a less than permanent fix for their bumper if it saves them money and/or time and effort. It's the same reason some people will get a .99 burger from McDonalds as opposed to a $11 burger from Ruby Tuesdays. They know the $11 burger taste better and there's more to it. They do not care though. They are perfectly happy with the .99 burger. Move to China and get in politics if you insist on making choices for others.

 

[Accumulator]

I looked through all of Flashtime’s posts(1000 of them) and didn’t see any discussion about this. :nixweiss The search function is still not back to normal. :har: I’ll try PMing Flashtime to see if he can lend his experience to this whole discussion. Are you referring to blending of the color coat/single stage or clear coat? Isn’t your Jag single stage? Did Stoddard do a clear blend and if so on what part of your car?

OMG will I feel guilty if I misremembered who it was and wasted your time like that As he's our resident painter I just might've assumed incorrectly, but I do recall somebody (other than you) telling me how the paint manufacturers say it's a :nono I mentioned it to actually give more credence to *your* side of this one I recognize that the expert opinion and my experiences differ here.



Yeah, the Jag is ss lacquer (well, it's about 97% ss now ) so I left it out of the discussion other than mentioning how some of its blends are fine after decades. One of the pre-delivery blends (the stories that poor car could tell!) did *NOT* age well and had to be redone with the last of our ss paint. Ss blends are tricky in their own way and some last forever and some don't IME (I can elaborate more via PM/phone if need be).



At present, all of my b/c blends were done at Stoddard, though I suspect that'll soon change when my other guy (who does the Jag) works on the beater-Tahoe.



Here's a run-down:



'02 MPV (just sold but a perfect example)- Where I trashed the clear via PC trying to improve a to-the-primer scratch, near the fuel filler on the LL quarter. They blended both b & c over an area about 4-6" square (the scratch was maybe 2" long). I *absolutely* could not tell where they started/stopped. Perfect basecoat ("b") match (even the metallic was dead-on perfect), best I think I've ever seen..just got lucky and I think they were as pleasantly surprised as I was. My memory's a little hazy here, but it was done in maybe '04 or '05. Zero problems from then to now, but no, I didn't compound it aggressively or anything like that and sure, that would probably lead to issues.



'00 A8- Predelivery damage that I wanted to send the car back over, but Accumulatorette said "just get it fixed, I want that car". Hard to remember where the areas were and at this particular moment I'm drawing a blank Also hard to remember which repainted areas were related to that vs. the time it got sandwiched between a semi and the concrete lane divider (dealership guy driving). But while I can tell some areas are repainted due to b mis-match I've had no delamination problems related to any of the blending. The car does have some "repainted vehicle" issues, but not from that. Still, I don't do aggressive correction on it, lest I precipitate issues.



'01 S8- Deer-incident repairs In a hopeless attempt to satisfy me, they ended up redoing several areas quite a few times, and those were blended spot-ins. Plus, they blended back into the driver's door, and *did not* reclear the entire door. I can still see slight b mismatches that show where the new paint is but I finally said "good enough". As with the driver's door, they did *NOT* reclear the entire panels when they did these spot-ins. Very minimal texture issues, but no delamination issues or "real weirdness" like you can get at the new/old paint junctures. Again, I don't correct it aggressively and would probably be singing a different tune if I did.



Summary- So while there are some areas of potential concern (e.g., the inablility to do serious correction, which is my worry not something they were concerned with and the question of extensive UV exposure damage), I've had no problems with this sort of repair. That MPV fix has got to be the perfect example of this...reclear a whole quarter (and where to stop? check out an MPV some time :think: ) with all the requisite disassembly or just do a small area? Seemed like a no-brainer and I'm actually sorta glad that I didn't know it was "the wrong way to do it" as I might've second-guessed myself.



And yeah, the "warranty" is a gentleman's agreement that anytime I'm not happy, they'll do their best to fix that. Period. Forever. And yeah, Stoddard has done enough for me over the years that *that* is good enough for me (I've been through a few "generations" of bodyshop managers there).



[Insert plug for Mike and Jeff at Stoddard's bodyshop and, actually, for the whole dealership :xyxthumbs ]

 

[Jean-Claude]

At this point I don't even care.



Some of you don't like it and think it's terrible business/ethics/[fill in the blank]. I get that. I, as well as others, disagree for many reasons.

/thread

 

[Flashtime]

OPTiK:

Just live with it. You can sand it down a bit, just enough to remove the "fuzzy", then use a touch-up from the dealer. It wont be perfect

but all other alternatives aren't worth it IMO; not for this. Wait til you really bang it up then consider having it "professionally" repaired.



(i use the above line a lot.)



There are so called high-end body shops that turn out crap and there are SMART (aka Mobile) repairers that do "better" work. This is reality.

Manufacteruer procedures, paint quality, technique, warranty, $, and a bunch more can be discussed/argued to no end. It's a big can of worms.

Just as long as "things" are explained clearly (without BS) to the customer, then it's all good.

 

[Flashtime]

Where can i get this sign??

 

[Dan]

There are so called high-end body shops that turn out crap and there are SMART (aka Mobile) repairers that do "better" work. This is reality.

Manufacteruer procedures, paint quality, technique, warranty, $, and a bunch more can be discussed/argued to no end. It's a big can of worms.

Just as long as "things" are explained clearly (without BS) to the customer, then it's all good.

And so is everything in life. Its all a crapshoot at best, but if you play by the rules, chances are you'll do better than get lucky. My point in all of this is the right way, certainly to anyone reading this, is to get edge to edge painting. At the end of the day, there is the right way to fix a panel and a shortcut. I agree, as long as the customer is informed that this is a shortcut that is not as good as a full panel paint, all is good.

 

[Accumulator]

Flashtime- SO *was* it you that helped educate me regarding the generally ill-advised nature of the spot-ins?



I'm absolutely not trying to start something or :argue or any such [crap], just curious about who I've discussed this with.



Just because I've been happy with such repairs doesn't mean they're "right", even if I do still put that in scare-quotes.

 

[Thomas Dekany]

KDS Detailing Aston Martin V8 Vantage , leather dents and gold detail - Detailing World

 

[Accumulator]

tdekany- Some sorta-random thoughts on that Aston follow, and man-oh-man I hope I don't come across like an offensive [jerk]:



-If the owner is happy then that's that. I'm tempted to say something about anyone who'd let a nice car get like that in the first place, but...well, I bet he's pefectly happy with how everything turned out and that's what counts.



-When I have work like that done, I might spend 15 minutes inspecting a single small area, in highly controlled conditions with a scad of different lights and often magnification. There's just no way for me to evaluate that work based on the pictures.



-Wonder how the repairs will look in five or ten years :think:

 

[Thomas Dekany]

If the owner is happy then that's that

I agree with you.