CAn FI-II be applied and removed by hand with good results?
- Thread starter riotejas
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vettefan67
New member
You may want to follow up with SMR and then PPCL because I got hazing with SMR until I got the technique down. Others have gotten hazing from SMR and even PPCL, depending on application technique and paint condition.
What color is your car?
You may not notice hazing on a silver car but on black the results could be visually disasterous!
Many of these abrasives are designed to be used by machine for best results because the heat from the high speed of the machine breaks down the abrasives so they cut less and less as they are used. You can't do this by hand. To replicate machine results you'll have to use at least 2 different polishes. I'd recommend finishing up with PPCL -- I love it.
Edit: Wow, I just turned 500
What color is your car?
You may not notice hazing on a silver car but on black the results could be visually disasterous!
Many of these abrasives are designed to be used by machine for best results because the heat from the high speed of the machine breaks down the abrasives so they cut less and less as they are used. You can't do this by hand. To replicate machine results you'll have to use at least 2 different polishes. I'd recommend finishing up with PPCL -- I love it.
Edit: Wow, I just turned 500
I have a Black car, which is about 5 years old. There are some pretty brutal swirl marks all over the car that is driving me nuts.
So basically you are saying to use FI-II followed by PPCL. I guess some normal questions are:
1) I assume I can wash the car with dawn, clay the car, then apply FI-II. Do I need to wash again with dawn before subsequent applications of FI-II or PPCL?
2) How many applications of FI-II is recommendeD? I mean, the answer is probably until I can't see swirl marks anymore, but I guess what I'm asking is whether it is safe to apply 2-3 applications of FI-II?
3) Foam or terry pads to apply the FI-II and PPCL? I'm assuming MF towel to buff off?
4) Will my results by hand be as good as by machine?
So basically you are saying to use FI-II followed by PPCL. I guess some normal questions are:
1) I assume I can wash the car with dawn, clay the car, then apply FI-II. Do I need to wash again with dawn before subsequent applications of FI-II or PPCL?
2) How many applications of FI-II is recommendeD? I mean, the answer is probably until I can't see swirl marks anymore, but I guess what I'm asking is whether it is safe to apply 2-3 applications of FI-II?
3) Foam or terry pads to apply the FI-II and PPCL? I'm assuming MF towel to buff off?
4) Will my results by hand be as good as by machine?
3M F-2 is a MACHINE POLISH. It is designed to be used with a machine. The abrasives it contains will not properly break down into a polishing rouge when used by hand due to lack of heat/friction and your results most likely will be less than desired (hazing/swirls etc.). If your going to do your vehicle by hand, IMO I would stay with a SMR, 3M or Meg`s #9. My .02.
TBone
TBone
vettefan67
New member
I dont know if PPCL will remove FI-II haze. I have not used FI-II so I won't attempt to guide you in its usage, only to caution you as I know it's a more abrasive product than one I already used and got hazing from.
If you are going the FI-II route, I would recommend having SMR and PPCL on hand, and you can return the SMR if you don't need it. I personally would apply the FI-II by hand in the normal abrasive technique of front-to-back and firm to very light pressure as the compound dries up.
Then I'd gently buff it off with a charisma or something I don't use for buffing other products (in case abrasive remains) and then wash and evaluate. You will probably have to step down to SMR to remove FI-II's hazing and MAY have to step down to PPCL to remove possible hazing from that. Either way, PPCL rocks!
Foam. All terry applicators I have personally seen bar one are too low quality to be used on paint. You'll be okay using FI-II with terry if you want but use the following ones with foam.
If you are going the FI-II route, I would recommend having SMR and PPCL on hand, and you can return the SMR if you don't need it. I personally would apply the FI-II by hand in the normal abrasive technique of front-to-back and firm to very light pressure as the compound dries up.
Then I'd gently buff it off with a charisma or something I don't use for buffing other products (in case abrasive remains) and then wash and evaluate. You will probably have to step down to SMR to remove FI-II's hazing and MAY have to step down to PPCL to remove possible hazing from that. Either way, PPCL rocks!
Foam. All terry applicators I have personally seen bar one are too low quality to be used on paint. You'll be okay using FI-II with terry if you want but use the following ones with foam.
TBone
The problem with using SMR or Meg #9 by hand is that they do not contain enough abrasives to remove most swirls. I have spend over 3 hours on a hood before SMR even made a dent by hand. SMR is very very mild, and it contains fillers so it may appear you are removing more swirls than you really are.
FI-II can be used by hand. Yes the abrasives will break down quicker when you use a machine, but they will break down by hand as well.....it just takes longer. I have used FI-II with great success by hand, many of the members here have use it by hand also. It all in the technique:up
The problem with using SMR or Meg #9 by hand is that they do not contain enough abrasives to remove most swirls. I have spend over 3 hours on a hood before SMR even made a dent by hand. SMR is very very mild, and it contains fillers so it may appear you are removing more swirls than you really are.
FI-II can be used by hand. Yes the abrasives will break down quicker when you use a machine, but they will break down by hand as well.....it just takes longer. I have used FI-II with great success by hand, many of the members here have use it by hand also. It all in the technique:up
imported_Brad1
New member
Yes, you can use FI by hand. I have done so successfully for years. Be sure to use foam applicators.
imported_doug
New member
I have a black car. FI-II by hand left a considerable haze. FI-II applied by machine left a considerable haze too. Then I figured out that (as stated above) you need heat, time and work to break down the abrasives into finer polishing compounds. You could probably do this by hand with a lot of time and elbow grease, but I know there's no way I could do a whole panel, let alone a whole car, before my arm fell off. Get an orbital. Then apply as follows:
1) work on a relatively small area at a time. Divide your hood in 1/4's.
2) Apply 1 quarter-sized dollop of compound to a foam "cutting" pad - i.e., a stuff foam pad on your orbital. Set the orbital to its highest speed.
3) Place the orbital on the car, start it and distribute the material around the entire section you plan to work at speed 4. Stop, re-set the speed to 6. (Full on).
4) Now begin to work it. Apply a good pressure to the orbital - you should hear the motor load down a bit. Advance very slowly, overlap your previous pass by half. when you've completed the whole section, repeat this at a 90 degree angle to the 1st pass, and then do this two more times.
5) Now the material should have dried and thinned significantly. Reduce pressure - make 4 more passes. Reduce pressure some more - at this point the weight of the orbital is about right. Make 4 more passes. Now support hlaf the weight of the orbital and make 4 more passes.
6) Stop and buff off. The FI-II residue can be a little hard to remove competely - don't try! some of the dust will contain undiminished abrasive - lots of rubbing increases the chances of re-scratching the car. Use detail spray to help lube and clean. Don't worry about getting it completely clean - you're going to follow this with SMR or glaze anyway, right? Let it finish the cleaning for you.
That's how I did it, and it worked very, very well. Now if you think you can duplicate that effort by hand, have at it. But I think you'll be both sore and sorry.
1) work on a relatively small area at a time. Divide your hood in 1/4's.
2) Apply 1 quarter-sized dollop of compound to a foam "cutting" pad - i.e., a stuff foam pad on your orbital. Set the orbital to its highest speed.
3) Place the orbital on the car, start it and distribute the material around the entire section you plan to work at speed 4. Stop, re-set the speed to 6. (Full on).
4) Now begin to work it. Apply a good pressure to the orbital - you should hear the motor load down a bit. Advance very slowly, overlap your previous pass by half. when you've completed the whole section, repeat this at a 90 degree angle to the 1st pass, and then do this two more times.
5) Now the material should have dried and thinned significantly. Reduce pressure - make 4 more passes. Reduce pressure some more - at this point the weight of the orbital is about right. Make 4 more passes. Now support hlaf the weight of the orbital and make 4 more passes.
6) Stop and buff off. The FI-II residue can be a little hard to remove competely - don't try! some of the dust will contain undiminished abrasive - lots of rubbing increases the chances of re-scratching the car. Use detail spray to help lube and clean. Don't worry about getting it completely clean - you're going to follow this with SMR or glaze anyway, right? Let it finish the cleaning for you.
That's how I did it, and it worked very, very well. Now if you think you can duplicate that effort by hand, have at it. But I think you'll be both sore and sorry.
imported_BretFraz
New member
I bought some 3M FI2 today to play with and try to remove some scratches that SMR couldn't. My technique on my RR quarter panel was very similar to Greg's; an excellent description.
Instead of following up with SMR, I applied a coat of BF polish by PC/white foam pad and finished off with one coat of BF AFPP by hand/MF applicator.
I then drove over to my local Target which has the best (read, <em class='bbc'>harshest[/i]) lighting around. What did I see? Plenty of swirl marks and still a few scratches the FI2 missed. The BF polish didn't seem to fill or remove anything.
IMO, this is a product that definitely needs some experimentation. Greg's technique is a great start. But a follow on like SMR is needed. I'll remove the BF and rebuff with the SMR tomorrow, then back to the BF.
Instead of following up with SMR, I applied a coat of BF polish by PC/white foam pad and finished off with one coat of BF AFPP by hand/MF applicator.
I then drove over to my local Target which has the best (read, <em class='bbc'>harshest[/i]) lighting around. What did I see? Plenty of swirl marks and still a few scratches the FI2 missed. The BF polish didn't seem to fill or remove anything.
IMO, this is a product that definitely needs some experimentation. Greg's technique is a great start. But a follow on like SMR is needed. I'll remove the BF and rebuff with the SMR tomorrow, then back to the BF.
Your most correct Showroom, F-2 *CAN* be used by hand as any other product available can be used by hand. However...it was designed for use with a machine and best results will be obtained this way. And you are also most correct about technique but the individual appears inexperienced and his finish, after 5 years worth of swirls, suggests it was somewhat neglected ! These two points combined (inexperience/neglect) will most likely, if using F-2 by inexperienced hands on a neglected finish, will have less than desired results and a heck of a lotta sweat and sore arms/shoulders ta boot not to mention a beating in the ol motivation department!!! The SMR advice, I agree, although not strong enough for this particular finish, may in fact deliver better results for a beginner fanatic in this particular situation. Personally, I would use a wool pad (PC/rotary) with F-2 on his finish, followed by SMR using a foam pad and then a final pamper with a soft buff finishing pad using Meg Show Car/3M Imperial glaze topped off with a carnauba or Polymer protectant.
TBone
TBone
vettefan67
New member
SMR will remove most normal swirls if you work the HECK out of it. I mean push HARD for the first few passes and use a few more passes (all by hand in my case) to remove the hazing that the first pass caused.
I don't think it's worth it though, that's too much effort for the same / lesser result. You will be fine with SMR alone once you get the technique down (safer practice of technique too, I might add) but you will get "better" results faster with a harsher abrasive that will remove more clearcoat.
I don't think it's worth it though, that's too much effort for the same / lesser result. You will be fine with SMR alone once you get the technique down (safer practice of technique too, I might add) but you will get "better" results faster with a harsher abrasive that will remove more clearcoat.
imported_Intermezzo
New member
I've used FI-2 & PPCL by hand on a black car with results that were less than satisfactory. However, I was able to clear up the haze created by the above products with Klasse AIO. Obviously something was wrong with my technique in applying them because a lot of people have had success using the above products by hand. Boy, what I wouldn't give to watch some of the veterans of this forum (Brad, Don, Beau & others) in action with the FI-2 or PPCL...applying them by hand & perfecting their cars!!
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >
<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by carguy [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>That's how I did it, and it worked very, very well. [/b]</blockquote>Great post, Greg - thanks. That's the level of detail I need :up
My results with the PC and FI-II have been less than I was expecting, and I can see from your post that there's a lot more technique to it than I thought. Gonna try again, based on your method. Thanks again.
<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by carguy [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>That's how I did it, and it worked very, very well. [/b]</blockquote>Great post, Greg - thanks. That's the level of detail I need :up
My results with the PC and FI-II have been less than I was expecting, and I can see from your post that there's a lot more technique to it than I thought. Gonna try again, based on your method. Thanks again.
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >
Meg Show Car/3M Imperial glaze topped off with a carnauba or Polymer protectant.</blockquote>
Sorry TBone, you can't use these products with a polymer sealant. The oils in these products will not allow the polymer to bond properly. If you are going to use IHG or Meguiars Show Car Glaze you MUST use a caranuba only.
Meg Show Car/3M Imperial glaze topped off with a carnauba or Polymer protectant.</blockquote>
Sorry TBone, you can't use these products with a polymer sealant. The oils in these products will not allow the polymer to bond properly. If you are going to use IHG or Meguiars Show Car Glaze you MUST use a caranuba only.
Hey TM you have gotten some great info from everyone. I have used FI II by hand and with a PC. As you would guess it works better with the PC. However if you just had some small scratchs or small area of swirls you could make the FI II work by hand. But if you are talking about doing a large area or the whole car the PC is really the way to go.
fwiw I've had great results following the FI II up with SMR both by hand and PC.
fwiw I've had great results following the FI II up with SMR both by hand and PC.
It's pretty much common knowledge. For a polymer sealant to bond to the surface properly the surface must be perfectly clean of any oils, dirt, old wax etc. Even the oils in a caranuba wax will not allow the sealant to bond properly.
If you apply a sealant over oils in a glaze like Meguiars or IHG, or even caranuba for that matter, the sealant is trying to bond to the oils on the paint, not to the clearocoat itself. So after a few washings when the oils in the glaze wash away....so does your sealant.
Don't use any glazes before applying a polymer sealant, or you just wasting your time applying sealant.
If you apply a sealant over oils in a glaze like Meguiars or IHG, or even caranuba for that matter, the sealant is trying to bond to the oils on the paint, not to the clearocoat itself. So after a few washings when the oils in the glaze wash away....so does your sealant.
Don't use any glazes before applying a polymer sealant, or you just wasting your time applying sealant.
imported_doug
New member
Also, see the "Meguiar's Users: differences bertween products" post.
If you like Show Car Glaze, wax over it with Hi-tech yellow - a blend of synthetics (polymers) and carnauba. should last ALMOST as well as polymer, and WILL work.
If you like Show Car Glaze, wax over it with Hi-tech yellow - a blend of synthetics (polymers) and carnauba. should last ALMOST as well as polymer, and WILL work.
imported_Intermezzo
New member
<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote' >
<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by carguy [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Also, see the "Meguiar's Users: differences bertween products" post.
If you like Show Car Glaze, wax over it with Hi-tech yellow - a blend of synthetics (polymers) and carnauba. should last ALMOST as well as polymer, and WILL work. [/b]</blockquote>
Carguy,
In your experience, how long does the the above protection last?
Also, you've been using Souveran. How would you compare it to Meg's Gold Class?
Thanks.
Tony
<em class='bbc'>Originally posted by carguy [/i]
<strong class='bbc'>Also, see the "Meguiar's Users: differences bertween products" post.
If you like Show Car Glaze, wax over it with Hi-tech yellow - a blend of synthetics (polymers) and carnauba. should last ALMOST as well as polymer, and WILL work. [/b]</blockquote>
Carguy,
In your experience, how long does the the above protection last?
Also, you've been using Souveran. How would you compare it to Meg's Gold Class?
Thanks.
Tony