Blackfire, Klasse, Zaino, and Souverän questions

[Nick T.]

I’ve been doing some playing with Blackfire, Klasse, Zaino, and Souverän Liquid. I have 3 or 4 layers of each in different combinations on the rear deck and half of the hood on top of multiple layers of Zaino. Gonna add Platinum to the mix when it arrives. I’m pleased with the progress and have learned a little - sometimes I’m a pretty slow learner, so I have several questions. :nixweiss



Tentative conclusions so far:

Ease of application about equal.

Ease of buffing: BF=4.0, Z=3.5, K=2.5.

Ability to top each other seems okay.

Ability to top or be topped by S seems fine (even Z) and about equal.

BF GEP is much better than AIO for dealing with individual minor marring.

All seem to accept a final buffing with a light misting of distilled water equally well, and using a smooth finish MF polishing cloth they do as well as with their proprietary QD’s. BF QD not tested since I don’t have it yet.

Final “silkiness� also seems about equal.

No where near enough experience to judge sparkle or depth yet. At this point they seem to be about equal.



I love experimenting and comparing, but I’d prefer to not run up too many blind alleys, so here are the questions:



Is there any way to really tell if there is really any bonding or if the sealant is just being wiped off with the carrier?



I know that isopropyl alcohol will remove Zaino, but what will remove BF and K? Not that I want to remove it, I want to avoid inadvertent removal.



In the defense against kamikaze insects, which product provides the hardest surface?



Are there any long term problems (hazing, smearing, etc.) in layering different combinations or using different QD’s?



Is there a sequence of layering these products that produces a better depth - like topping Z-2 with Z-5 every four or five applications?



Is there a secret way to get rid of all swirl marks? I use very clean MF mitts, applicators, and towels, and with care and use of 3M IHG have eliminated most of them - but at certain angles in very bright sunlight there are always a few visible on my Jet Black paint.



Comments, suggestions, hints, even flames will all be very much appreciated! :bow

 

[Jngrbrdman]

Here is a great thread that sort of spells out part of what you were looking for. That is a pretty old review and things have changed a little bit since then. The 'buzzword products' on Autopia change fairly often. 2 or 3 times a year. Back then the war was with Klasse and Zaino and between Souveran and Blitz. Now we have P21S and Platinum and Blackfire and AutoGlym and Poorboys several other products thrown into the mix. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in it.

 

[stoneweed1]

on my black vehicle, i find that buffing off the blackfire all finish paint protection is very difficult and leaves a haze on some parts. i've greatly decreased the amount as well as left it on longer to dry, however still with the same results.



can you tell me what your experience is?

 

[Patrick]

Stone, I actually found BF1 easier to remove then BF2....However, the results your looking for lie underneath the strain of removal. Its a process, thats all there is to it, you will get use to it. Most marring is easily removed with MF, QD, or a combo of the two...

Try layering it... I prefer, with BF, to apply 1 coat, remove, park vehicle in the sun for maybe 10 minutes or so....That rejuvenates the oils and brings them back to the surface.....Bring you vehicle back to the shade, wipe with a MF....wallah, instant beauty. Then do it again...:xyxthumbs

 

[Nick T.]

on my black vehicle, i find that buffing off the blackfire all finish paint protection is very difficult and leaves a haze on some parts.

Try this: after your initial buffing mist the area with QD or water and buff again. Use more buffing, not more pressure.

 

[rstype]

Maybe I'm the old man in the group, but I'm fairly certain that Blackfire II shouldn't be layered immediately, nor should you spray a liquid such as QD after application. This may be different with new "space-age polymers" like Zaino, but Blackfire's oil-in-water composition seems different.

Try this: after your initial buffing mist the area with QD or water and buff again.

Polymers need to crosslink and cure, so the rule of thumb is to apply layers as thin as possible to allow sufficient air for the resin to catalize it. Once the cure has started, it should not be exposed to water, which stops the crosslinking. The product will never cure to its complete state. See where I'm going? Therefore it is not recommended to spray a QD (mostly water) onto the just-applied sealant. The QD will prevent the oxygen from allowing it to completely cure.

I prefer, with BF, to apply 1 coat, remove, park vehicle in the sun for maybe 10 minutes or so....That rejuvenates the oils and brings them back to the surface.....Bring you vehicle back to the shade, wipe with a MF....wallah, instant beauty. Then do it again...

I dunno, but for me, the line between polymer and wax is blurred with Blackfire. CMA claims its a polymer, albeit an oil-in-water emulsion. So assuming I trust CMA, you must wait at least 24-hours after the first application to apply a second layer, since they make no notice of any instant/flash curing.



That is only assuming that CMA is correct about it being a polymer...

 

[Nick T.]

You've got a good perspective there BW!



Quite possibly it would be better to wait until the next day to do the final buffing. :nixweiss

 

[Patrick]

You may have something there.....but Im no chemist..

All I can say is what i have done has been tried and tested, albeit nothing scientific, and as far as CMA has entrusted a vast majority of us....the process works.....

Didnt CMA make the stuff ? Well at least have a say in what they wanted the product to accomplish ??

 

[imported_memnuts]

I agree with BW. I allow all protectants to cure at least 24 hrs after application and buffing. This includes my past experience with Zaino and ZFX, BF I, BF II ( CMA recommends 24 hr cures), Poorboy's EX, P21S and Souveran (CMA also recommend 24 hr cures). Yes, I treat both sealants and carnuaba with the same interval.

Of course this is easily stated when I will not drive a vehicle that I am layering prior to completion of the multiple layers. This could present a problem if car is exposed to environment between coats. Also if Patrick's method works I see no reason not to do this if conditions ( time) require rapid application of multiple coats.

Basically I am lazy and normally one coat is enough work ( "detailing fix") for one day for me.:xyxthumbs





Nice review Nick T:bow

 

[Nick T.]

Here is some info regarding misting Blackfire, Zaino, or Klasse with QD or water to remove any remaining residue.



The following two quotes are from CMA’s online Blackfire Application Guide and are also in their printed Blackfire User Guide and the Blackfire Application Update.

<font color=red>TIP #3</font> - If you experience difficulty buffing a dry film (very unlikely) mist the surface with BLACKFIRE Deep Gloss Spray or any quick-detail spray and wipe with a dry Microfiber towel.

If you find a residue that has dried on the finish and it resists easy buffing, mist with water and wipe with a clean, dry towel.

My personal notes from a phone conversation with Mr. Z show that he said that remaining carrier can be easily removed by misting with Z-6.



The printed Klasse Application Guide says:

To remove difficult films:

Mist the area with a quick detail spray and wipe the area with a clean towel (microfiber if possible).

(or)

2. Apply a nickel size amount of High Gloss Sealant Glaze to a dry applicator pad and wipe over the hazy area until there is almost no residue. Buff the area immediately with a fresh terry towel or microfiber towel.

And regarding the curing time for BF 2 is also found here.

<font color=red>Product Update:</font> The newest formula of All Finish Paint Protection (all product shipped after Oct 1, 2002) creates a super-slippery finish but needs to cure 12 hours between coats.

 

[Nick T.]

Still hoping for answers to my questions! :nixweiss



I love experimenting and comparing, but I’d prefer to not run up too many blind alleys, so here are the questions:



1. Is there any way to really tell if there is really any bonding or if the sealant is just being wiped off with the carrier?



2. I know that isopropyl alcohol will remove Zaino, but what will remove BF and K? Not that I want to remove it, I want to avoid inadvertent removal.



3. In the defense against kamikaze insects, which product provides the hardest surface?



4. Are there any long term problems (hazing, smearing, etc.) in layering different combinations or using different QD’s?



5. Is there a sequence of layering these products that produces a better depth - like topping Z-2 with Z-5 every four or five applications?



6. Is there a secret way to get rid of all swirl marks? I use very clean MF mitts, applicators, and towels, and with care and use of 3M IHG have eliminated most of them - but at certain angles in very bright sunlight there are always a few visible on my Jet Black paint.

 

[Patrick]

1. Is there any way to really tell if there is really any bonding or if the sealant is just being wiped off with the carrier?

Id have to say that if you get any normal length of protection from the product your using its working. I mean most of us know when we didnt do something right....

I know that isopropyl alcohol will remove Zaino, but what will remove BF and K? Not that I want to remove it, I want to avoid inadvertent removal.

Anywax cleaner ought to do the trick, polishes normally remove also, maybe not the light grade though.

Are there any long term problems (hazing, smearing, etc.) in layering different combinations or using different QD’s?

Make sure your layering product are compatible with each other....

Also I wouldnt use a Carnauba based QD'er over Polymer Protectants, thats a no no...if you continue to layer throughout the yr. If say you initially have 3-4 layers, and your sure thats all your going to layer, then by all means go ahead and use a carnauba QD'er. As for ? 5, its all in the eys of the beholder, theres one thing you cant find on Autopia, a lack of opinions...

3M IHG have eliminated most of them -

Make certain you are happy with your prep work b4 you seal and protect and layer ! Im not sure there would be a problem layering glazes, fillers....??

 

[Jngrbrdman]

Your questions are best suited for a thread all of their own. That is a pretty tall order and most of them could be answered by digging through the forums a bit anyway. It is a whole books worth of answers you are asking for. If nobody is writing up a 3 page post on the answers to all those questions then its probably because it would take forever. Try searching on each individual one. That is a pretty long list.



If you want just short answers then I can help you with that.



1. No

2. Dawn

3. Dunno. These are bonding on the molecular level and they aren't really adding any strength to your surface.

4. No

5. I'm not a Zaino user so I don't know.

6. I wish there was. It depends on the condition of the car and color. Its usually just persistance and the right products. That varies between jobs.

 

[schoi]

Let me try.



1. Is there any way to really tell if there is really any bonding or if the sealant is just being wiped off with the carrier?



Well, I've been wondering that, too. Many people that layer sealants see an increase in gloss and sometimes depth. If you see that to any extent that can be justified by something other than your own expectation of seeing it, then you're bonding. Other than that, I'm not really sure.



2. I know that isopropyl alcohol will remove Zaino, but what will remove BF and K? Not that I want to remove it, I want to avoid inadvertent removal.



What he said. Prewax cleaners; stuff like No. 7; Dawn is said to weaken the sealant layers but not remove it (from my one Dawn wash, I tend to agree.).



3. In the defense against kamikaze insects, which product provides the hardest surface?



lol, "kamikaze insects," I hate those little stupid b1tches... who knows? Surely, one is harder than the other, but in all honesty, I think that all of the sealants we use here are gonna offer pretty good protection against the suicidal bugs we encounter. (lol, to paraphrase from David's Guide to Detailing: The last thing that goes through a bug's head before hitting your windshield is his a$$!)



4. Are there any long term problems (hazing, smearing, etc.) in layering different combinations or using different QD’s?



Depends. Some people that use SG find themselves stuck with a haze (myself included) that often results from stuff like application method / too much product / etc. Although I'm not sure, I don't really think that, if you put them on well, you'd have a problem. I also don't think that the QD's would cause much of a problem, although you will want to avoid carnauba QD's (obviously) and maybe the acrylic Sonus QD, too. Just go with Meg's FI or something, I would think.



5. Is there a sequence of layering these products that produces a better depth - like topping Z-2 with Z-5 every four or five applications?



Well, that's a little subjective. Z5 is the swirl remover, right? I'm not a Zaino user. But anyway, it's very possible, and if I ever do try Zaino, I'd probably do what you just said because I would think that it would produce a better finish. Of course, I also think that any difference isn't gonna be much.



6. Is there a secret way to get rid of all swirl marks? I use very clean MF mitts, applicators, and towels, and with care and use of 3M IHG have eliminated most of them - but at certain angles in very bright sunlight there are always a few visible on my Jet Black paint.



If only. Just being really cautious about what you use on your paint and how you use it is the best defense against swirls. Like he said, just make sure you have a perfectly swirl free finish before you start layering. I'm sure you know that IHG is just hiding them, not removing them; you may want to go with SMR on those problem spots to really get the car as close to perfect as you can.



Hope that's helpful to some extent. :xyxthumbs

 

[Accumulator]

Nick T.-

2. I know that isopropyl alcohol will remove Zaino, but what will remove BF and K? Not that I want to remove it, I want to avoid inadvertent removal.

I HAVE removed Klasse with rubbing alcohol. Not sure about BFII.

3. In the defense against kamikaze insects, which product provides the hardest surface?

Sealants like BFII and KSG don't really make the surface harder, but they can buy you a little time before you have to clean the bug remains off. The bug enzymes will be attacking the sealant instead of/before the bare paint. Which will be best? :nixweiss

 

[Nick T.]

Thanks Polaris and Accumulator for your input! :bow



Anybody else?