Blackfire and silicone, a bad thing??

chrisd

New member
I've tried Zaino and Klasse, but IMO Blackfire beats the other two hands down. All three are durable and fairly easy to use, but the shine obtained with Blackfire really sets it apart...very deep, glowing, and carnauba like. Aside from being a dust magnet, Blackfire has only one possible downside, and that is the fact that its formulation is based on ... you guessed it ... element #14, Silicon.



But I'm not really sure this is a downside. Now I've read all the opinions on Silicone, which basically fall into one of three categories: (1) Stay away from the stuff at all costs...it's impossible to remove and will cause fisheyes if the car needs to be repainted; (2) Silicone can be difficult to remove, but not necessarily. There are "good" silicones and "bad" silicones, so just make sure the product you use has the "good" ones; and (3) Silicone is not a problem, period. Without silicone, you have no protection.



Kind of like getting opinions from three different economists. So I figured I'd call up 5 different reputable body shops and see what they say, since they deal with repainting cars every day.



Here's what I found out. The first shop I called was an adamant supporter of opinion (1)...silicone is nearly impossible to remove and causes fisheyes. Body shops 2 and 3 weren't as adamant about not using it as the first, but stated it sometimes can be difficult to remove (neither one said anything about "good" silicones or "bad" silicones). Body shop 2 suggested using carnauba only, and body shop 3 said there used to be an effective product for removing polymers called "Polycrack", but that it was banned for environmental reasons. Also, I might note, body shop 2 told me that sanding will remove the silicone polymer, while body shop 3 told me you must remove the stuff prior to sanding, otherwise you will further embed it into the paint when you do sand it. Hmmm...these two guys should get together and start talking.



And finally, body shops 4 and 5 told me that using silicone-based products is not a problem, period. So there you have it. 5 different economists, 3 different opinions. I'm not really sure what to make of it, since I don't profess to be a chemist, a painter, or an economist for that matter. I might add that the Meguiar reps I've spoken with told me nearly all their products contain silicone, because without it, you have essentially no real protection. So based on the amount of volume Meguiars does, I would think that if silicone was a problem they'd hear about it (unless it's the "good" silicone, "bad" silicone thing).



I've rambled on long enough now, but thought some people might be interested in hearing these opinions from body shops. I would be very interested to hear what others think, and if anyone has had problems repainting a car that had BF on it.
 
Well, its a large and complex subject you've broached, and one that has been discussed many time here at Autopia.



But I can say this: Silicon (the element) is *not* the same thing as silicone (the polymer compound). Please make sure you understand the differences between them and how they're related.
 
Yes, I am aware of that distinction. In fact, the BF web page has a figure that shows the chemical building blocks of their polymer. But it's amazing to me how much controversy there is over this whole silicone thing. Let's face it ... we're not talking politics or religion here...this is something science and experimentation should be able to answer for us.
 
Body shops don't know anything? They live in the Stone Age??



So let me see if I understand your line of reasoning. Instead of believing the people who repaint cars for a living and have no incentive for stating an opinion one way or another, I should listen to the company who is trying to sell me their product. Hmm. Maybe we should start getting our information on the health effects of smoking from the tobacco companies then, huh?
 
chrisd said:
Body shops don't know anything? They live in the Stone Age??



So let me see if I understand your line of reasoning. Instead of believing the people who repaint cars for a living and have no incentive for stating an opinion one way or another, I should listen to the company who is trying to sell me their product. Hmm. Maybe we should start getting our information on the health effects of smoking from the tobacco companies then, huh?
:rolleyes:



Re-read my post. Bodyshops don't know anything about the product you are wondering about and many of them don't know the difference between different types of silicones and products. Lots of them are also run by hacks and people with less than perfect knowledge. Sure they can spray paint, but that's about it.



Ask CMA if the product is bodyshop safe and address your concerns. I would think CMA (still) has a better reputation than a tobacco company and wouldn't lie about something as serious as this.



Feel free to follow the advice that you got from all 5 of those bodyshops if you like though. :rolleyes:



http://www.autopia.org/forums/search.php?s=
 
chrisd said:
Yes, I am aware of that distinction. In fact, the BF web page has a figure that shows the chemical building blocks of their polymer. But it's amazing to me how much controversy there is over this whole silicone thing. Let's face it ... we're not talking politics or religion here...this is something science and experimentation should be able to answer for us.



Based on your original post describing the surveys you conducted at local body shops, I'd say a good portion of the "controversy" comes directly from them. How can you be amazed when the very research you obtained is wildly inconsistent?



While you were conducting interviews at body shops, did you question your interviewees as to their level of knowledge and education about silicones and its affect on automotive paint? Did these people give you any credentials as to the extent of their knowledge and expertise?



And there one extremely critical fact you've misunderstood: EVERYONE has an incentive to state their opinions. We all have our personal motives, reasons, and desires. Even those who do not state their opinions have reasons and incentives to keep quiet. Lets not ignore basic human nature here simply because it doesn't fit into our arguement.
 
Look, I just presented this information from the body shops because I thought some people might find it useful. Plus I wanted to know if anyone had any silicone-related problems using Blackfire. As far as the knowledge and experience of the body shops, I can assure you that they are top rate. So why do they have different opinions? Probably because they have different experiences, just like people on this forum have different experiences when they use the same products. So I don't think it's fair to slam the body shops. To say that "they can spray paint, but that's about it" is arrogant and totally ridiculous. Most of these guys have been prepping, painting, sanding, and detailing paint before most of the people on this forum were born. They're not wooed by over-priced, "designer" products and illusions of grandeur.



I was hoping that just maybe a polymer chemist or someone of that sort might be in the audience, who could shed some real knowledge on the subject. I'm not a chemist, but I have do have a masters in engineering, so I can handle a little science. But it doesn't look like I'm going to find it here.



PS. If you want to believe everthing the salesman tells you then go for it.
 
It wasn't meant as a blanket statement. Please re-read my 2nd post and notice the qualifiers "many" and "lots".
 
bretfraz said:
And there one extremely critical fact you've misunderstood: EVERYONE has an incentive to state their opinions. We all have our personal motives, reasons, and desires. Even those who do not state their opinions have reasons and incentives to keep quiet.



How true! There are so many opinions in detailing chemistry it is ridiculous. Coming from body shops and vendors and manufacturers and fellow enthusiasts on this board, it is your job to sort through all of the agendas. My personal favorite BS is in product testing(not referring to enthusiast level testing like side by side stuff...). You can easily set up a test to give you the desired results. I could get 98% UV blockage from peanut butter if i wanted to. Very few people would see the specifics of my testing to realize that i lathered my body with a layer of peanut butter and never wiped it off. Be wary and critical of "independent" testing - especially if a manufacturer provides it.



The Short Version: Definitive answers are hard to come by. All you can do is read up and make an educated decision. This is a good place to read up so you're on the right track:up
 
chrisd said:
Look, I just presented this information from the body shops because I thought some people might find it useful. Plus I wanted to know if anyone had any silicone-related problems using Blackfire. As far as the knowledge and experience of the body shops, I can assure you that they are top rate. So why do they have different opinions? Probably because they have different experiences, just like people on this forum have different experiences when they use the same products. So I don't think it's fair to slam the body shops. To say that "they can spray paint, but that's about it" is arrogant and totally ridiculous. Most of these guys have been prepping, painting, sanding, and detailing paint before most of the people on this forum were born. They're not wooed by over-priced, "designer" products and illusions of grandeur.



I was hoping that just maybe a polymer chemist or someone of that sort might be in the audience, who could shed some real knowledge on the subject. I'm not a chemist, but I have do have a masters in engineering, so I can handle a little science. But it doesn't look like I'm going to find it here.



PS. If you want to believe everthing the salesman tells you then go for it.





It's too bad you're so willing to dismiss the knowledge and expertise of some people simply because you have no respect for their occupation. Your loss, I guess.



But you're right, you're not going to find what you want at Autopia. I don't know if there are chemists and engineers as community members but I do know there are a lot of smart, educated, and talented people here who try to be open minded about things related to car care products.



Good luck in finding an online chat forum about polymer chemistry or chemical engineering. If you find one, please post a link for us so we can check it out too.
 
OK. I have both the Blackfire polish and sealant sitting on my garage shelf. Do I use it or not? I've used Meguiar's products for over 30 years and avoided #26 for long time because it had silicone in it. I ended up using #26 because it works. I've not had problems with fisheyes when my vehicles have had to spend time in the body shop.



I've hesitated using the Blackfire because it is a polymer sealant rather than a carnauba wax. I'm not sure how any sealant will affect body repair and repainting.



Tom
 
bretfraz said:
It's too bad you're so willing to dismiss the knowledge and expertise of some people simply because you have no respect for their occupation.



I have respect for all professions when performed with honesty and integrity...painters, detailers, and scientists included. I apologize if my remarks came across as disrespectful (which, in retrospect, I see how they could have). I just felt painters weren't getting any respect, and I lashed out a bit. Hopefully this thread will die a peaceful death.
 
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