Beyond Zaino, what's the next step?

P

PeterS

New member
Hello everyone,



I've lurked and searched here for a while, and I thought it might be time to finally post.



I'm a long time Zaino user, and have been satisfied up until recently. I had an Arena Red C4S with very good paint that looked quite good with an occasional clay and a hand applied and hand buffed Z5, Z2, Z2.



However, I recently purchased a black '93 M5. My first black car. It has the typical '90's German orange peeled (marbled, I think they call it) non-metallic, clear coated, very dark gray paint, BMW calls it Schwarz II.



The paint looks great to everyone except the type of person who hangs around this forum. ;) Under cold florescent light, you can see a micro-pitted look to the paint. It looks almost like an outgassing under the clear coat.



Zaino simply doesn't work on this car. Too many swirls and spider webs. The Zaino also seems to smear on this car, and it doesn't look good until after the next wash. No depth either.



So I'm ready for the next step beyond Zaino. Any ideas? So far, I have purchased a PC7424 and Lake Country pads.



Here's the process I'm considering:

1) Strip Zaino with Dawn, then clay.

2) 2000 wet sand a few problem spots

3) orange pad with Menzerna Intensive polish

4) white pad with Menzerna Final polish

5) wash off polish, water only.

5) apply wax with black pad. What wax for this paint to get depth???? Pinnacle? P21S? or stick with a polymer, maybe Klasse?

6) remove excess wax by hand w/ MF towel

7) Buff with terry buffing bonnet.

8) is there a step 8? Is there a Z6 equivalent?



Comments and critique welcomed.



Thanks,

--Peter
 
Stick with the menzerna line up. Very easy to use and products are straight forward IMO. Pick up the FTG, FMJ and the FP2 it's a lot easier to work with than the FP. It's what BMW & MB in Germany use. I use it on my black 330ci and it leaves an awsome finish.



Also a swirl free finish, and yes it's possible on black, start with good washing techniques. Get the Big Blue wafle weave towel from CMA, it will not leave swirls and marrings in your finish.



Check my pics on in my gallery
 
Peter,



Your plan of attack sounds great. I've never used the menzerna lineup but have heard good things about the polishes.



On black paint, no sealant will ever truly give you the look you are after. I would use sealant topped with a wax. For sealants, if you are after durability, then go with klasse, or stick with z, and just top with souveran. It's supposed to be killer on flat black. If you don't care too much about sealant durabilty, then you have more options. WG, Poorboys, and BF have a nice look on darker paints. All of which are toppable as well. It really depends on what your goals and expectations are for the paint and products you are using.



Bill.
 
Peter,

Welcome to Autopia posting and adding your views, ideas, and knowledge on detailing. :wavey



I believe your plan of attacking this Bimmer is correct. PREP. If you perform this step to its ultimate real-life levels the choice of protectant will add minimally to the final results. In other words Prep is sooooo much more demanding on a black/dark grey vehicle than the Red you have been dealing with. A true test of actually receiving a mental holiday from detailing will be tested with your present color. Nevertheless, in the long term more satisfying as your finish is improved with your skill level and courage ;).

Do not diss the Zaino quite yet. With "next level" Prepping you will find that this product performs quite well.



No need to dawn wash. Dawn will not touch Zaino

Go straight to your polishing steps

Menzerna twins are great. I like IP (polishing pad - product working the surface) followed by AIO (cutting pad - pad working the surface) and than AIO (polishing pad - cleansing and rejuvenating surface).



At this point re-try your Zaino protocol. Z5 x2 and Z2 x 3



I believe you will be surprised with the results.



I respectfully disagree with Bill about sealants lacking depth if depth is created by a depth emphasized Prep. If you can polish that finish to its maximum virgin appearance, a sealant will only serve to protect it and augment its gloss. Sealants do not "extract" depth but at the same time they do not "create" it either. True depth is found during the Prep stages.
 
Edwin,



You make a good point. I should have worded my post differently. Selants don;t lack depth, but IMHO, they can detract from the depth of a well prepped surface. I do believe that selants can/do add to the look of paint. In many cases, what they add is more of a flat shine. This flatness that is added takes away from the depth of the virgin surface. Conversely, waxes compliment/add to the depth already achieved by the polishing. Some give more a wet look, while others have more of a deep and warm look. But I think you will agree that different LSP's do add something to the final detail. What it adds though may detract from something else.



JMHO,



Bill.
 
I agree with blkz28, Prep your car first. Polish out your swirls and remove the defects then give Zaino another shot. After your coats of Zaino if you want top it with S100/PS21 or a carnuba of your choice. See if you like that. Let Zaino cure at least 24 hrs before topping.
 
If you would like to simplify things, i'm guessing thats part of you giving up on zaino (not sure), get the FMJ it is an awsome product. It's doesn't take away from the depth of FP2, extremely durable and it is the easiest product to work with. Most people around here who have used both same FMJ edges out zaino and is much easier to work with.
 
BillNorth said:
Edwin,



But I think you will agree that different LSP's do add something to the final detail. What it adds though may detract from something else.

JMHO,



Bill.
Click to expand...



We agree. That's why some of us have so many "different" flavors :nixweiss for LSP's:D



side note

Bill, your WOWO is working great on my test vehicle. I detail indoors with temps about 65*. I have adapted my Z application thinness is better technique and WOWO works like a charm. Thanks. :bow
 
Edwin,



Not a problem! I'm glad WOO is working so well. Makes SG much easier to use IMHO, and also more practical than waiting for it to dry on the paint for 24 hours.



Bill.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone.



Having used Zaino for a few years, I can say that I prefer the previous formulation. The newer version of Z5 forms clumps and is a bit tougher to buff as it tends to leave more of a haze than it used to.



Since I still have quite a bit of Z5 and Z2 to use up, I'll continue to use it after polishing as a sealant.



Question: Will a carnauba top coat over Z5 fill in the minor swirls that Z5 can't?



I need to choose a wax and compatible quick detailer to top the Zaino. I think I might try Trade Secret and Sonus Carnauba Spritz.



BTW, here's a few links to the cars:



For those who still feel Zaino doesn't have depth.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/albun58/psierant2_LG



Shiny

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/albun58/psierant1_LG_001



Why I have rock chips

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/albun59/P5230018



Even looks pretty good wet.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/albun54/DSC01193



The new project.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/album144/bmw_5



You see what I'm up against. Sigh.

http://gallery.rennlist.com/gallery/album144/bmw_7
 
Thanks for the compliments. My goal is to the get the black car up to the same level the red one was.



I ordered the products this evening, so I'll be doing the following:



IP

FPII

Z5

Z2

TS



I'll post pics and give impressions when the stuff gets here.
 
Will Zaino bond on IP & FPII??? I doubt Zaino will bond on them, I want to switch back to Zaino too for my daily beater cause Carnaua Wax is not very long lasting.
 
luvthong said:
Will Zaino bond on IP & FPII??? I doubt Zaino will bond on them, I want to switch back to Zaino too for my daily beater cause Carnaua Wax is not very long lasting.
Click to expand...



I'm not sure how that matters, as the polish will be off the car before the Zaino goes on.



--Peter
 
Menzerna Is water-based, oil/silicone free and no fillers. Never had a problem since I do a pre-sealant application surface inspection Z6 QD. :wavey
 
After useing the IP & FP there should be no swirl markes to fill in. At least there arnt on my black Cad & Mnteer. I use the 50/50 alch.& HOH spray followed by Z5 ect. No bonding issues.
 
I have heard more than once that the german paint formulations do not take well to the polymer type synthetics.



I would have to tell you based on my own personal experience, that if you want the best shine, irrespective of longevity and beading, then nothing can beat an excellent high end carnauba.



Case in point: Zaino was the first polish I used on my then brand new Camaro SS. I heard all about Zaino on SLP's forum, and being a veteren of carnauba waxes, I decided to try it out to see if in fact this was the wax to end all. I was quite disappointed in the end, with my paint surface feeling grainy (it was smooth as a baby's bottom before) and just barely improving on the virgin paint's inherent shine. Without hesitation, I removed all of the Zaino, and returned to my tried and true brand of carnauba wax.



Last year I decided to see if I could truly find a wax that would give me the best shine for my money, since the paint was still in near new condition. I took the plunge, despite my years of disdain for Zymol, by trying one of their waxes from their Estate line. Wow.......is all I had to say. Zymol's Estate Wax is miles deep...it is infintely superior to Zaino (my opinion though) and anything else I've tried before it in resolution and depth of finish. I could not believe it then. The myth about Zymol not lasting long was not entirely true either, because thanks to my waxaholic nature, I was able to develop a good build up of wax during my season last year, and the wax held up through the winter right up to the start of this year's wax season.



So what I recommend to you is to search and find at least three very good wax (or polish if you want to stay with synthetics) products, and do your own test to see which medium will bring you the best shine. Despite many people's claim about various waxes, you will find that the real results will come from a wax that you will choose as the best for you, despite enthusiastic claims. Good luck with your search.
 
Thanks for the info. I don't believe there is anything inherent to German paints that make them less applicable to polymer sealants. Some of the best finishes I've ever seen are German cars with Klasse or Zaino. However, German clearcoats tend to be softer and therefore pick up marks more easily, and Zaino doesn't hide them.



I have found that Zaino is great IF your paint is perfect. We did my friends speed yellow 993TT, and the paint had great depth and shine just after polishing, with nothing at all on the bare paint. The Zaino just gave a mirror finish over it and it looks fantastic.



However, if your paint is anything less than perfect, then I feel you might be better off with a standard wax. They seem to hide defects better.



With the red C4S, I went from Zymol Carbon to Zaino and saw a significant improvement. The black M5 has suboptimal paint and Zaino doesn't look right, it seems to highlight the defects.



I'll post pictures of the bare paint after polishing, then with Zaino, then with the TS topcoat.



BTW, if your paint felt grainy after using Zaino, then either the paint was poorly prepped or something went wrong with the application. I couldn't keep a towel on my hood, it would slide right off and it felt like glass under your fingers.



Thanks,

--Peter
 
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