Beware (PoorBoys products being mispackaged)

[tanha]

The link wouldn't work for me, it said I had to log in first.



Someone fill me in?

 

[imported_Grouse]

well this was bugging me so i plucked out my phydrion insta check 0-13 ph strips.



I will post pics.



I used pepsi for the acid, water for the neutral, and S&R for what should be the base.



for reference HF acid should be hydrofluoric acid HF 2.1 on the ph scale. anything lower than that would not be HF.



First pic is of the tester



the 2nd pic is of all three liquids. left to right. pepsi, water, snr

tester

all three

Pepsi around a ph of 5

water there is a slight green tinge indicating 7 ph, water takes a while longer to turn the strip.

SNR around a ph of 3.5-4

 

[chml17l]

Ammonium bifluoride (NH4HF2) is the active component of PB's SNR. At high concentrations, a significant amount of the HF2 ion will be present in the solution. Acidified fluorides can produce substantial quantities of HF in solution. These chemicals are only potentially dangerous. What is dangerous is ignorance about how to properly use products that contain these chemicals.



The MSDS listed in the post above doesn't spell out exactly what concentration of Ammonium bifluoride is in PB's wheel cleaner. So, I'm not jumping to any extreme conclusions that SNR would be as dangerous a product to use as any other dedicated, strong chemical wheel cleaner. Meguiar's Wheel Brightener also contains the same active ingredient as PB's SNR at 10-15 wt.% Ammonium bifluoride.



Here is a link to an article from Professional Car Care Online that discusses the safety and necessary precautions when using either Ammonium bifluoride or HF containing products.



Article

 

[imported_Grouse]

thank you for the article it clears almost everything up

 

[imported_bren wrx]

cliff notes to all this information?

 

[stilez]

cliff notes to all this information?

-ABF is perceived as 20x safer than HFl

-ABF forms when ammonium hydroxide reacts with HFl

-ABF becomes Hfl when mixed with water or liquid cleaning solutions

- "Hydrogen fluoride and ammonium bifluoride. are created for industrial use only,"

-US CPSC has documented dozens of injuries and deaths from misuse of ABF

-" Whether fluoride ions enter body tissues as the result of inhalation or skin contact, they cause deep, progressive burning that may quickly lead to multi-organ failure and death. Long-term exposure to even minimal amounts of ABF can lead to brittle bones, weight loss, anemia, and calcified ligaments."

-ABF is harmful to lungs, skin, eyes, and kidneys

-The effects of ABF and HFl take time to set in

-Flouride (which makes them dangerous) in ABF is higher

-HF odor is more distinctive

-" If a wash owner chooses to use ABF or HF, experts say the wash should be equipped with a safety shower and eye-irrigation system. If employees will handle these products, they should be provided with gloves, goggles and aprons. If HF or ABF will be used in mist form, which is not recommended, wash employees should also wear masks or respirators."

-Lethal doses of ABF and HF are estimated between one teaspoon and one ounce.







WOW!



1) Think of the information coming from BrenWRX as it was coming from me. Bren and I have been close friends and detailing buddies for a while now. I have been on and off the phone with him since the inception of this problem. He was extremely inquisitive at first to how this stuff could eat his windshield. Yes, he didn't cross-check the colors on the website, but hey, who's job is that? Not his.



Right now, he just wants his parts fixed, and hopefully that will all go through smoothly. To note a couple more things, when he went to the windshield place, they said:



"This looks like the acid (damage) we use to frost glass"



and



"If an adjuster were on-site, they would tell you to park your car here, it's that bad"





Bren described driving at night like "looking through a kaleidoscope". So now, due to a mis-labeling "mix-up", Bren is out of his daily driving show-car, his business car, and his personal pride and joy...I'd be pissed, too.







2) It's nice to pull up the DC thread . Thanks Pat .





Some may really hate me or really love me for it, but hey, the proof is in the pudding. Look at that article and weep. It's nasty stuff. I'm not saying that other brands don't use something the same or similar, but hey, don't deny it.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I'm not sure how this deteriorated into an argument about whether acid-based wheel cleaners are safe. I have participated in threads before about the wisdom of using wheel cleaners with HF compounds in them (apparently SnR is one of them, as well as many others, including some that you can still buy OTC, I believe). Those of you that use HF-based wheel cleaners seemed rather non-plussed previously...I'm curious as to the change of heart now?



PS Regarding that lethal dosage, there is probably less than 1 oz of ABF in that whole quart of SnR.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

It's nasty stuff. I'm not saying that other brands don't use something the same or similar, but hey, don't deny it.

What is going on here? This has been discussed before, the Auto Int. article has been linked before. ABF is NOT HF for the purposes of MSDS or DOT. If you asked any other wheel cleaner mfr. that uses ABF whether it has HF in it, they would "deny it", also.



I'm not saying you should be drinking ABF, I'm the one in those other threads that said I choose not to use HF-based wheel cleaners, while many of you pro's seemed unconcerned. As chml71 said, this is only a potentially dangerous material, and is safe if handled and disposed of properly, just like bleach or drain cleaner, etc.

 

[imported_Picus]

I'm not sure how this deteriorated into an argument about whether acid-based wheel cleaners are safe. I have participated in threads before about the wisdom of using wheel cleaners with HF compounds in them (apparently SnR is one of them, as well as many others, including some that you can still buy OTC, I believe). Those of you that use HF-based wheel cleaners seemed rather non-plussed previously...I'm curious as to the change of heart now?



PS Regarding that lethal dosage, there is probably less than 1 oz of ABF in that whole quart of SnR.

I'm still not concerned about it. Proper use of acid-based wheel cleaners yields good results; it's no different than using any tool properly. In the case of the OP he recived a mis-labeled bottle which led to the use of the product improperly (not his fault), thus this entire conversation. That doesn't change the fact that when used correctly acid-based wheel cleaners work very well. It's be like recieving a bottle of wiper fluid that had engine oil in it. It might kill your fluid system, but it doesn't mean engine oil is a bad thing.



I am not privy to the "denial of ingredients" etc.. that led to this particular conversation, so I am going to stay out of it. Just wanted to chime in that imo, acid wheel cleaners are fine if used properly.

 

[MBurnickas]

Anything that says acid in it scares me. :soscared:

I really like that 4* wheel cleaner, it is more of a degreaser I suspect and sticks to the rim making it real easy to wash. The only issue is it's hard to rinse because it sticks so good, but it's definetly better than a dangerous wheel cleaner.