Envious Eric
New member
^^^ I hear ya...every 3 months I can tell a difference on cars that I just poliseal (my own and a few clients), I can only imagine if they wanted something like 80/FPII then waxing
Avg time range for polishing?
- Thread starter TSC17
- Start date
After reading this thread I think I've only gathered one piece of information, that everyone's definition of one step is different and their methodology varies accordingly.
One step is just that, 1 singular step. Two steps being polish then wax/sealant, 2 separate steps.
I do a few 1 steps each month catering to the customers who already have their 'details' done by local shops, but prefer a service provider that is mobile. My price has to compete with the others advertised and floats from $140-$180 depending on condition and size of vehicle. While technically this package does not include the separate swirls/glaze/dirty wax that they've grown accustomed to, it does provide a shiny, uniform and protected paint surface with a clean interior. And it may not be fully corrected, but it's better than when I started and there's no shame in that.
800 Wash, wheels, wells
830-845 Clay front end, mirrors
845-900 Remove large contaminants and spot Meguiars 85 a few scratches
900-945 Optimum Poli-Seal w/ 3M Black Foam
945-11 Interior, windows, jambs
Done in 2.5-3 hours
These customers aren't expecting miracles, and I explain that this process won't remove medium/heavy scratches, won't lift difficult carpet stains, and won't provide next to new results. Still they are always impressed when they come and check it out afterward. It doesn't matter 3 hours or 9 hours, give the customer your expectations for each package and tell them what they will see for results- not the other way around.
One step is just that, 1 singular step. Two steps being polish then wax/sealant, 2 separate steps.
I do a few 1 steps each month catering to the customers who already have their 'details' done by local shops, but prefer a service provider that is mobile. My price has to compete with the others advertised and floats from $140-$180 depending on condition and size of vehicle. While technically this package does not include the separate swirls/glaze/dirty wax that they've grown accustomed to, it does provide a shiny, uniform and protected paint surface with a clean interior. And it may not be fully corrected, but it's better than when I started and there's no shame in that.
800 Wash, wheels, wells
830-845 Clay front end, mirrors
845-900 Remove large contaminants and spot Meguiars 85 a few scratches
900-945 Optimum Poli-Seal w/ 3M Black Foam
945-11 Interior, windows, jambs
Done in 2.5-3 hours
These customers aren't expecting miracles, and I explain that this process won't remove medium/heavy scratches, won't lift difficult carpet stains, and won't provide next to new results. Still they are always impressed when they come and check it out afterward. It doesn't matter 3 hours or 9 hours, give the customer your expectations for each package and tell them what they will see for results- not the other way around.
lecchilo said:
I typically use a finishing polish like Menzerna 106, FPII, or Meguiars #80 with a white LC pad on a BO6040.
I don't know about those two quotes. There are many different tricks and differences in each detailers system that can end up saving a ton of time while maintaining quality in the finished product. I don't know how many cars you have done total but the more you do the more you learn. For reference 2500 details and 2800 hand washes have passed through my shop in the last three and a half years. Also I have detailed on and off for some 10 yrs. previous for three different shop owners who each had their own ways of doing things. W/O putting two cars next to each other to inspect in person this is all just healthy debate about what "quality" really is.
I know you aren't singleing me out, i'm just stating my experience to compare as i'm sure there is much variation from one user to the next on this site and much we can all learn from each other because of the fact that there is no set standards in this profession. You can see some pics of my work if you like on the website listed in my profile.
imported_Ivan Rajic
New member
MichaelM said:
I understand what you're saying... I'm always ready to learn some time saving tips, but my main reason for posting here is that I honestly cannot see how a certain polish can be worked for such a short time... I know if I personally work with #80 and/or 106ff (working time is similar) for only a minute or two, there's no way I'll work them in properly and get the best results out of them... however, I do know that even if I just do 1 pass left and 1 pass right at about 1200rpm the surface will get better than what it was before... basically what I'm trying to say is unless the machine you're using shortens the working time of these polishes, which I don't see how it would when it takes longer with a rotary, I don't think you're getting the results you could be getting, thus the difference in "quality"... then again if you're doing a 1-step in 4 hours and getting 70% correction while I'm doing it in 8 hours and getting 80% correction, quality is debatable solely based on the time/money... kinda like you get what you paid for...
I know for sure, from watching videos, Todd and Dave from the UK take almost 2x as long as I do to break down polishes so I feel as if I'm not even up to the quality of work where I could/should be with the particular pad/polish combos... for example I think I've seen Todd work with LC white and 106ff for 5-6 minutes on a small section, meaning there's no way he can possibly finish a 1-step in those 4-5 hours, simply because you can't speed up the working time of a polish.
Oh and no, I wasn't singling you out, simply trying to understand how you guys that can do a 1-step in 4-5 hours work and what exactly you do compared to myself.
I dont see why you can't do a 1 step in 4 - 5 hours. I by no means go for or get perfection or near it with a 1 step my customers understand that and are fine with it. To my customers quality is a better looking car, they dont care to know about swirls or what needs to be done to get them out, they are not your car enthusiast. If I tell them about the swirls then they think I am talking over their head and they ignore me and go somewhere else, they just dont want to be educated (the majority). They just want a shiny car and want it to feel smooth. Shiny to a customer is not the same thing as shiny to us. I try to upsell to the customer and if they refuse I give them exactly what they pay for. I am not going to serve the customer up with a 2 step for the price of a wash and wax. A detail that many of us would consider crappy or "C" quality work is in reality "A" quality work to most of car owners. We are a VERY small minority that know or care about swirls, claying, oxidation, industrial fall out, etc. The vast majority of people in my area dont care to know what swirls/etc are. I will spot polish problem areas most of the time just to be nice depending on the customer.
However, If a customer mentions 1 stepping their car to get swirls out, I ask them what else they expect out of this detail and inform them that I am not Jesus or a miracle worker so lets go take a look. On initial inspection I always tell the customer if you can feel it with your finger nail its to deep to get out. Most of the time I can upsell a customer that requests a 1 step to a 2 or 3 step detail, because these people are semi-educated about paint and car care and actually want there car to look the very best possible. People that dont care about paint or car care are far less likely to want perfection, however I try to make it look as good as I can for what they pay. I'm not saying that the vast majority of people dont care about paint or the way there car looks, they just have a different perception of what good looks like. I cater to a different clientel base than a lot of people on here do. I cater to lower middle class and people that just want wash/wax quikie types done. My prices are lower than most other shops and I stay busy constantly with a steady stream of cars. More cars = more money for me
Just because it would look better to do a 1 or 2 step on a car doesn't mean I am going to just do it for the same price as a wash/wax. I keep what the customer wants and expects in my mind and I go a little beyond that and they are thrilled.
I just noticed its taken me like 30 minutes to write this! FWIW I know my 1 step can look better, but my customers dont/can't leave there car's all day. Given the time constraints that all/most of my customers have I can't take all day and have to go fast and sacrafice some quality, they are still thrilled though....
However, If a customer mentions 1 stepping their car to get swirls out, I ask them what else they expect out of this detail and inform them that I am not Jesus or a miracle worker so lets go take a look. On initial inspection I always tell the customer if you can feel it with your finger nail its to deep to get out. Most of the time I can upsell a customer that requests a 1 step to a 2 or 3 step detail, because these people are semi-educated about paint and car care and actually want there car to look the very best possible. People that dont care about paint or car care are far less likely to want perfection, however I try to make it look as good as I can for what they pay. I'm not saying that the vast majority of people dont care about paint or the way there car looks, they just have a different perception of what good looks like. I cater to a different clientel base than a lot of people on here do. I cater to lower middle class and people that just want wash/wax quikie types done. My prices are lower than most other shops and I stay busy constantly with a steady stream of cars. More cars = more money for me
Just because it would look better to do a 1 or 2 step on a car doesn't mean I am going to just do it for the same price as a wash/wax. I keep what the customer wants and expects in my mind and I go a little beyond that and they are thrilled.
I just noticed its taken me like 30 minutes to write this! FWIW I know my 1 step can look better, but my customers dont/can't leave there car's all day. Given the time constraints that all/most of my customers have I can't take all day and have to go fast and sacrafice some quality, they are still thrilled though....
imported_DetailDan
New member
If there is anyone in NOVA who can get a 2 or 3 step polish done in under 8 hours with 95%+ correction and max gloss, then please PM me. Id love to watch.
lecchilo said:
I think this statement about sums up the debate. It is a business after all so my time spent working on a car needs to be compensated for and customers are only willing to spend so much. The only real goal in a basic one-step polish job at my shop is an overall improvement in surface condition because that is all you can expect to accomplish profitably, IMO.
A tough lesson to learn in detailing is finding the line between meeting your customers expectations vs. your own. What you have in mind for their car is often times not what the customer has in mind, and this is usually because of cost. The more I do this the more I try to not have any expectations when I first see a car but focus more on getting done what they want done in a manner that I feel good about.
And ditto to what bwalker25 just posted!
lecchilo said:
I think you make a pretty good point here. After a certain point (let' say 4 hours like you did above), for each additional hour you spend, the results of that hour will continue to deminish. As someone said, here is where knowing what you customers wants (and more importantly, is willing to pay for) is critical.
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
lecchilo said:
If your getting 70% or 80% capability from a product/finish that's able to give you near 100% potential, I'd have to say you might not using the product correctly or not going after the ultimate result. If someone uses 106ff/85rd and it only takes them 1-2 hours to work the entire vehicle, I'd bet anything that they aren't using it properly. Especially if they're using a PC. From some of the videos I've seen here and on the internet, I can see why. If alot of the deminishing abrasive polishes aren't broken down properly, the finish might look good for a little while, but there's a strong change that buffer trails will reappear. There was a recent video of someone using either SIP or 106 and they worked 1/3 of the hood for less than a minute. There's no way that was right.
imported_Ivan Rajic
New member
David Fermani said:
I think you misunderstood me... I was saying from a 1-step, if I break down the polish properly and get 80% correction, yet someone else does it in half the time but gets 65-70% correction, it might be worth, money/time wise, for them to keep doing that if the customer is paying only enough for a 4hr detail... thus they're getting what they paid for and it's still as good as it's going to get with the quick working time...
In short, I'm in agreement with you with the breaking down of polishes, which is my main point above... I agree that there's no way a polish can be broken down that quickly, thus why I criticized, in a way, the person doing a 4hr detail with a DA and 106ff, simply because I feel it's impossible to properly work in the polish, especially, as you said, with a PC or DA, in such short period of time. However, I also stated that quality is subjective here simply because of the time involved, meaning if the guys doing 4.5 hr 1-step details actually worked in the polish for an extra 1-2 hrs over the entire car, quality would go up proportionally to time spent polishing, even with just the 1-step... hope this makes sense
David Fermani
Forza Auto Salon
You can probably get by with that combo if you're using a medium/mild foam pad, but I'd be hard pressed to think that if somthing more agressive(like wool) was used Ultrafina wouldn't be able to "fill" the gap. Ultrafina was designed to be used after their swirl remover (step 2 in their 3 step process) was used. Dark finishes look OK(shiny) after that step, but still were prone to swirls. Also 105>UF won't create *max* gloss in comparison to using a polish as an in-between step. I use UF only after I know the finish is 95%(or more) swirl free from another polishing step used prior. Again, there's a decent(sometimes worthwhile) difference between acceptable and possible results. It's all based on what you're after.
David-you still have to work within the confines of what the customer is willing to pay for. If they are only willing to pay for two polishing steps, you *may* have to settle for a bit less correction to get a swirl/mar free finish that has a touch less gloss than a three step process. I wish everyone was willing to pay for $500 details but the reality is that most people are really happy with a good $200-300 detail that corrects the paint in the 90% range-to most people, that would be an exceptional finish.
On the white C240 in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-details-before-after/105020-2-c-s-do-i-get-passing-grade.html
I used #105 and Ultrafina. On the hood, I had to use a white foamed wool pad with #105 but followed it with #105 and a Meguiars 8006 yellow foam pad, which was also enough to remove 95-98% of the defects on the rest of the car. I definitely agree that if you use #105 with wool, you need an intermediate step prior to using Ultrafina. Right with you too on only using UF on only very minor holograms as well.
Anyway, for #105/wool, #105/foam and Ultrafina, I think this is a pretty damn good shine...
I am sure if I used a true intermediate step between #105 and Ultrafina I might have been able to add a bit more gloss but I was operating on a budget set by my customer. I will tell you he was absolutely floored how the car turned out.
On the white C240 in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-details-before-after/105020-2-c-s-do-i-get-passing-grade.html
I used #105 and Ultrafina. On the hood, I had to use a white foamed wool pad with #105 but followed it with #105 and a Meguiars 8006 yellow foam pad, which was also enough to remove 95-98% of the defects on the rest of the car. I definitely agree that if you use #105 with wool, you need an intermediate step prior to using Ultrafina. Right with you too on only using UF on only very minor holograms as well.
Anyway, for #105/wool, #105/foam and Ultrafina, I think this is a pretty damn good shine...
I am sure if I used a true intermediate step between #105 and Ultrafina I might have been able to add a bit more gloss but I was operating on a budget set by my customer. I will tell you he was absolutely floored how the car turned out.
imported_Ivan Rajic
New member
Scottwax said:David-you still have to work within the confines of what the customer is willing to pay for. If they are only willing to pay for two polishing steps, you *may* have to settle for a bit less correction to get a swirl/mar free finish that has a touch less gloss than a three step process. I wish everyone was willing to pay for $500 details but the reality is that most people are really happy with a good $200-300 detail that corrects the paint in the 90% range-to most people, that would be an exceptional finish.
On the white C240 in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forum/pro-details-before-after/105020-2-c-s-do-i-get-passing-grade.html
I used #105 and Ultrafina. On the hood, I had to use a white foamed wool pad with #105 but followed it with #105 and a Meguiars 8006 yellow foam pad, which was also enough to remove 95-98% of the defects on the rest of the car. I definitely agree that if you use #105 with wool, you need an intermediate step prior to using Ultrafina. Right with you too on only using UF on only very minor holograms as well.
Anyway, for #105/wool, #105/foam and Ultrafina, I think this is a pretty damn good shine...
I am sure if I used a true intermediate step between #105 and Ultrafina I might have been able to add a bit more gloss but I was operating on a budget set by my customer. I will tell you he was absolutely floored how the car turned out.
Scott, I'm very curious as to why you didn't go with a different middle polish, something like #83 or 80 with 8006 instead of 105? I'm not doubting what you did as I know you're one of the best here and the car speaks for itself, but I'm curious why 105/8006 was necessary after 105/wool?
lecchilo said:
#105/wool was leaving moderate holograms on the hood and 105/8006 cleaned it up with only very minimal holograms. I didn't see a need to switch to a different polish and pad. #105 leaves a very glossy finish for a heavy compound and on ceramiclear paints, leaves only faint holograms.
kingdetail34683
New member
what kind of wax is everybody using a bees wax or a liquid wax. do u leave it on the cars?
imported_Ivan Rajic
New member
Scott I understand completely... have you tried M95? While I've had limited experience with 105 (maybe 4-5 hours) I've really come to like M95... you have to work it a bit longer but IMO it produces a better finish than M105 with LC PFW pad...
I use wax made of bee honey... I leave it on the car for 10 mins then lick it off cuz it tastes so good
Seriously, I everybody uses a lot of different wax products, from liquid, to solid, to ...
kingdetail34683 said:
I use wax made of bee honey... I leave it on the car for 10 mins then lick it off cuz it tastes so good
Seriously, I everybody uses a lot of different wax products, from liquid, to solid, to ...
imported_d00t
New member
When you guys mix polishes to create longer working time, do you like squirt out so much of each (whatever "dilution" you desire) into a bowl, mix it together, and then slowly dump it in it's own bottle? Just curious on how to go about this. I think I want to do this to a polish like SIP to get a little more working time out of it..