Automagic Wash-mitt and New Car Glaze

[Spilchy]

Opinions are like belly buttons...

LOL, my dad told me once as a kid that opinions are like a-holes, but I won't go there!



Seriously though David, whatever works for you in your shop is what is most important. I'm not here to say your choice in favorite products are wrong. Rather, I *am* here to give *my* opinion on the products based on *my* experiences with them when compared to others.



If I may point out what I mean by ingredients. AutoMagic links their MSDS sheets for us to view. I like that.



The Banana Magic Wax (a wax I think you like) has a bulk of the same ingredients as their XP Swirl Remover (a product ScubaStevo called "crap" in another thread). I thought it was average (not crap!) - too many fillers. For a better look I prefer Vanilla Moose.



Read the chemical composition of these two products:



Banana Magic



XP Swirl Remover



After reading that (and the same on their bottles) I don't want a liquid wax that contains and shares a bulk of the same ingredients as their swirl remover which is more of a silicone, filler loaded glaze. A swirl "remover" should have abrasives. This doesn't. There are much better quality liquid waxes than Bannana Magic (as well as swirl removers), making it (them) average in my book.



Its reading stuff like this, coupled with my research, investigation and experimenting with the products that lead me to my opinions/conclsuions about AutoMagic. I have written and received MSDS sheets from Eagle One and Meguiar's to help me make factual and educated decisions on product uses.



I hope these are "realistsic facts" for you to help you understand why *I* feel this way about AutoMagic.



Again (I think the third time!) I am not saying they are "bad." They are average. They fit the bill for bulk, cheap chemicals for dealerships who don't like spending money on their detailing department's chamicals. That's why Autopians (90% non professionals) who are die hard enthusaists and hobbysists, don't use AutoMagic. But if it works for you, great!



Again, put a post in the Professional Section and see who is using them and if not, why. These are fellow industry colleagues who can answer you. This is only *my* take, as a hobbyist, on AutoMagic..

 

[David Fermani]

If I may point out what I mean by ingredients. AutoMagic links their MSDS sheets for us to view. I like that.



The Banana Magic Wax (a wax I think you like) has a bulk of the same ingredients as their XP Swirl Remover (a product ScubaStevo called "crap" in another thread).



Read the chemical composition of these two products:



Banana Magic



XP Swirl Remover



After reading that (and the same on their bottles) I don't want a liquid wax that contains and shares a bulk of the same ingredients as their swirl remover which is more of a silicone, filler loaded glaze. A swirl "remover" should have abrasives. This doesn't. Its reading stuff like this, coupled with my research, investigation and experimenting with the products that lead me to my opinions/conclsuions about AutoMagic. I hope these are "realistsic facts" for you to help you understand why I feel this way about AutoMagic.



Again (I think the third time!) I am not saying they are "bad." They are average. They fit the bill for bulk, cheap chemicals for dealerships who don't like spending money on their detailing departments. That's why Autopians (90% non professionals) who are die hard enthusaists and hobbysists, don't use AutoMagic.

Steve - I understand what your saying and respect your opinion.

Please clarify this for me: swirl removers, I believe, shouldn't have abrasives. Abrasives are one of the reasons why swirls are there in the 1st place. When your buffing to remove swirls, fillers help "fill-in" micro-scratches. yes, you start off leveling a finish with an abrasive, but there shouldn't be any in the final 2 steps (final buff and wax).

Also, some of the nicest, most state of the art dealerships I've seen use Auto Magic. Remember Auto Nation - All Auto Magic. Yes alot of dealerships try to cut costs wherever they can, but some do care about their recon departments.

 

[Spilchy]

swirl removers, I believe, shouldn't have abrasives. Abrasives are one of the reasons why swirls are there in the 1st place.

Swirls are in the paint because of poor washing techniques, poor quality towels, and improper pad/polish combinations coupled with poor buffer technique. Abrasives, work to remove the swirls then break down and polish out to smooth swirless finish. Some compounds require a finer polish to achieve this.



So in my opinion, abrasives are not the reason for swirls - the incompetent user is.

When your buffing to remove swirls, fillers help "fill-in" micro-scratches

Filling is unacceptable to me. I polish out a vast majority of the swirls and marring. If I am unable to get out the last bit, I'll work to fill in with a glaze or heavy carnauba. Micro scratches are also caused by not allowing a polish to break down enough. Here is a nice example of that from Autopian BlkYukon (at end of paragraph). He demonstrates how this happens. He then uses a finer abrasive (Menzerna Final Polish) to finish polishing out the car. That's swirl free with no fillers, ready for a wax. This is an example of an abrasive as the final buffing step. BlkYukon's example So, for me, if polishing properly, there is zero need for fillers.

but there shouldn't be any in the final 2 steps (final buff and wax)

I agree to a point. There shouldn't be abrasives in the final wax but I can easily go to a wax from the final buff that used an abrasive. Poorboys SSR 2.5 and Optimum Compound finish out beautifully and are ready to receive a wax. If working on a black car, I might follow with Optimum Polish before a wax. That's what makes them better, more versatile products than AutoMagic.



Take a look at this Autopian's posts (see link below). Look at his before and afters paying close attention to his product selection on the paint. You'll notice he uses abrasives (that do NOT have fillers) all the way up to his final buff before a wax or sealant which also don't have fillers. Each abrasive he chooses gets finer in grade as he moves closer to his final step. Note, he uses no glazes or swirl fillers.



This is an example of a true expert with a buffer. It's all in his pad/product/technique that enables him to achieve this finish WITHOUT the aid of fillers while using abrasives.



Note some of his pictures show the finish BEFORE the final step. Note the complete removal of swirls with no fillers.



The Porsche Cayenne and his Honda Accord takes the cake in my book! But they are ALL excellent examples of what I am trying to illustrate.



http://autopia.org/forum/search.php?searchid=379543



There are others here too (RickRack, GSRStilez, Anthony Orosco) but Joe's work popped into my head first. You can check the others guys' work too in Click&Brag.

 

[David Fermani]

Swirls are in the paint because of poor washing techniques, poor quality towels, and improper pad/polish combinations coupled with poor buffer technique. Abrasives, work to remove the swirls then break down and polish out to smooth swirless finish. Some compounds require a finer polish to achieve this.



So in my opinion, abrasives are not the reason for swirls - the incompetent user is.







Filling is unacceptable to me. I polish out a vast majority of the swirls and marring. If I am unable to get out the last bit, I'll work to fill in with a glaze or heavy carnauba. Micro scratches are also caused by not allowing a polish to break down enough. Here is a nice example of that from Autopian BlkYukon (at end of paragraph). He demonstrates how this happens. He then uses a finer abrasive (Menzerna Final Polish) to finish polishing out the car. That's swirl free with no fillers, ready for a wax. This is an example of an abrasive as the final buffing step. BlkYukon's example So, for me, if polishing properly, there is zero need for fillers.







I agree to a point. There shouldn't be abrasives in the final wax but I can easily go to a wax from the final buff that used an abrasive. Poorboys SSR 2.5 and Optimum Compound finish out beautifully and are ready to receive a wax. If working on a black car, I might follow with Optimum Polish before a wax. That's what makes them better, more versatile products than AutoMagic.



Take a look at this Autopian's posts (see link below). Look at his before and afters paying close attention to his product selection on the paint. You'll notice he uses abrasives (that do NOT have fillers) all the way up to his final buff before a wax or sealant which also don't have fillers. Each abrasive he chooses gets finer in grade as he moves closer to his final step. Note, he uses no glazes or swirl fillers.



This is an example of a true expert with a buffer. It's all in his pad/product/technique that enables him to achieve this finish WITHOUT the aid of fillers while using abrasives.



Note some of his pictures show the finish BEFORE the final step. Note the complete removal of swirls with no fillers.



The Porsche Cayenne and his Honda Accord takes the cake in my book! But they are ALL excellent examples of what I am trying to illustrate.



Check out this work done by epbcivicsi



There are others here too (RickRack, GSRStilez, Anthony Orosco) but Joe's work popped into my head first. You can check the others guys' work too in Click&Brag.

I agree with you partially. Ready again what I said: "Abrasives are ONE of the reasons why swirls occur" coupled with the other things you mention. I'm directly speaking of the swirls caused by agressive polishes. You can't buff a vehicle's finish with an agressive polish, pull it out in the sun and not expect there to be swirls(wheel marks). No matter how good of a buffer you are, there will be swirls. Then, after this primary step, you follow with a less abrasive product, and then probably a product without any abrasives. As you decrease the amount of abrasives, the amount of fillers increase to deepen the finish and seal it in.

Also, explain how "Abrasives, work to remove swirls then break down and polish out to smooth swirless finish. Some compounds require a finer polish to achieve this." I never knew that abrasives break down that much. So, in a sense, you could get a mild compound(with abrasives) and just keep polishing(using perfect technique) and not ever have swirls. I don't think so. Aren't there fillers in all polishes, or are they just all abrasives? Isn't wax just a pure filler to begin with?



This is copied from your link:



Menzerna - Final polish (no fillers or oils)

P21S GECP/S100 SEP (fillers or oils)

Clearkote Vanilla Moose (fillers or oils & some protection)

3M Imperial Hand Glaze (no abrasives)

Meguiars Hand Polish



You start with abrasives(no fillers/oils) and end with no abrasives(fillers/oils). This is correct. This isn't how you explain it, please clarify.

 

[ScubaStevo]

David,



I think you just don't understand what we're saying. Filling in swirls is like cheating a customer. They are paying to have them removed, so its a like new finish. Filling them in doesn't help them at all. It will look good for a month or two, and be back to looking like it did before, if not worse.



Also, abrasive compounds break down great if you know how to work them. Most of the time I can get SSR 2.5 to break down to a sealable finish.



It seems that you're stuck in the dealership mindset, where you want to do mass quantity, lesser quality. Filling products will get the vehicle out in a hurry, with minimal effort and maximum profit, no doubt about it. But if you want to truely satisfy a customer, you have to have work that will stand longer than a month or two, period.



But, you're entitled to your opinion. :up

Steve



PS. I just noticed the title of this thread, and I agree that New Car Glaze is great stuff if you're doing a 1 step process. Gives a customer a little extra since they're really only paying for a wax.

I agree with you partially. Ready again what I said: "Abrasives are ONE of the reasons why swirls occur" coupled with the other things you mention. I'm directly speaking of the swirls caused by agressive polishes. You can't buff a vehicle's finish with an agressive polish, pull it out in the sun and not expect there to be swirls(wheel marks). No matter how good of a buffer you are, there will be swirls. Then, after this primary step, you follow with a less abrasive product, and then probably a product without any abrasives. As you decrease the amount of abrasives, the amount of fillers increase to deepen the finish and seal it in.

Also, explain how "Abrasives, work to remove swirls then break down and polish out to smooth swirless finish. Some compounds require a finer polish to achieve this." I never knew that abrasives break down that much. So, in a sense, you could get a mild compound(with abrasives) and just keep polishing(using perfect technique) and not ever have swirls. I don't think so. Aren't there fillers in all polishes, or are they just all abrasives? Isn't wax just a pure filler to begin with?



This is copied from your link:



Menzerna - Final polish (no fillers or oils)

P21S GECP/S100 SEP (fillers or oils)

Clearkote Vanilla Moose (fillers or oils & some protection)

3M Imperial Hand Glaze (no abrasives)

Meguiars Hand Polish



You start with abrasives(no fillers/oils) and end with no abrasives(fillers/oils). This is correct. This isn't how you explain it, please clarify.

 

[David Fermani]

David,



I think you just don't understand what we're saying. Filling in swirls is like cheating a customer. They are paying to have them removed, so its a like new finish. Filling them in doesn't help them at all. It will look good for a month or two, and be back to looking like it did before, if not worse.



Also, abrasive compounds break down great if you know how to work them. Most of the time I can get SSR 2.5 to break down to a sealable finish.



It seems that you're stuck in the dealership mindset, where you want to do mass quantity, lesser quality. Filling products will get the vehicle out in a hurry, with minimal effort and maximum profit, no doubt about it. But if you want to truely satisfy a customer, you have to have work that will stand longer than a month or two, period.



But, you're entitled to your opinion. :up

Steve



PS. I just noticed the title of this thread, and I agree that New Car Glaze is great stuff if you're doing a 1 step process. Gives a customer a little extra since they're really only paying for a wax.

Yes, just filling in swirls is cheating your customer. That's not my "mindset". I didn't just just do dealer work. About 10-15% of my business was retail. Also, think about the situation where a customer comes in to have their swirls removed. Once you've sucessfully removed(not hidden) them, who is to say that your work isn't going to last just a month or two? After all, they are the ones that keep putting them in aren't they? When's the last time you completely reworked a person's paint, just to find out that the next time you detail it, it's back to square one again. You can do the best buff job in the world, it won't prevent swirls from happeneing again if they don't know how to take care of their paint.

Also, I can too use New Car Glaze and have a sealable finish.

What my basic premise is that some glazes/polishes have and need fillers to do the job. If they don't, it opens up a large possiblity of swirling, no matter how much snake oil is used.

 

[Spilchy]

Also, explain how "Abrasives, work to remove swirls then break down and polish out to smooth swirless finish. Some compounds require a finer polish to achieve this." I never knew that abrasives break down that much. So, in a sense, you could get a mild compound(with abrasives) and just keep polishing(using perfect technique) and not ever have swirls. I don't think so.

That's simply wrong. Apparantly you have a lot to catch up on. Maybe because you only use AutoMagic, you don't understand the concept of diminshing abrasives found in many other compounds and polishes. Meguiar's has a nice video that explains how diminishing abrasives work in their products. I can go from Poorboys SSR 2.5 to a wax. I can go from Optimum Compound to a wax. I can go from Meguiars Dual Action Cleaner Polish to a wax. If the car is black, I may have to follow up with a finer polish. I can achieve a swirl free finish without fillers strictly using abrasives of varying degress with the proper pads in multiple steps. Look at Joe's work that I linked to. He achieves a swirl free finish without fillers. Look at the Porsche Cayenne (second thread in that link I posted). You will see a swirl free finish with zero fillers, BEFORE any wax has been applied. Its so basic that you even have pictures with halogen lighting to illustrate it my point

Aren't there fillers in all polishes, or are they just all abrasives? Isn't wax just a pure filler to begin with?

No there aren't fillers in all polishes. Menzerna doesn't contain fillers. Same with 3M. That's why most folks who use Zaino use these polishes because the fillers will cause bonding issues. Furthermore, many folks do a 50/50 wipe down with alcohol and water to REMOVE potential fillers in other polishes to get a better look to make sure they have REMOVED the swirls NOT fill them. If not, they polish further until they remove them.

Menzerna - Final polish (no fillers or oils)

P21S GECP/S100 SEP (fillers or oils)

Clearkote Vanilla Moose (fillers or oils & some protection)

3M Imperial Hand Glaze (no abrasives)

Meguiars Hand Polish



You start with abrasives(no fillers/oils) and end with no abrasives(fillers/oils). This is correct. This isn't how you explain it, please clarify.

LOL, that's just a list of products and whether or not they contain fillers. That has NOTHING to do with a process or related steps to follow. It's just a grocery list of 2 polishes and 3 glazes that he put together. If you knew about those products you wouldn't have mentioned that. I think that's the issue. You're not familiar with all the other polishes and compounds out there and how they work which leads you to comment the way you do. Autopia on a daily basis is bombarded with products and techniques of folks achieving swirl free finishes with diminishing abrasive polishes and compounds with no fillers.



Watch this video from Meguiar's. You'll witness swirl free finishes with compounds and polishes with no fillers all achieved with a rotary and proper pad combinations. You'll see wet sanding marks removed leaving a swirl free finish, all done with abrasives and no fillers. You can start with #6 and go up from there: VIDEO



I can't explain it further. I've pretty much exhausted my ability to make it as clear as possible. The video will prove what I've been saying with clear visual evidence.

 

[Anthony O.]

The only way to remove swirls, and I am speaking of buffer halograms when I use the word "swirls" is to remove the layer or area of paint where the halograms are located.



Halo scratches are also a pesky eyesore and the only way to remove them is to also abrade the paint away.



Polishes do this by way of abrasive properties but these abrasives break down due to heat and friction. Some cut faster than others, like Menzerna IP, and those that do tend to do less "burnishing" than others that break down slower. Menzerna FP has very little cutting power but it also produces a fine finish and can be worked longer. Optimum Polish can be worked for a very long time and it will eventually cut like IP and it will then finish out close to FP.



Now if you have done some heavy cutting and polishing but some marring remains then instead of risking a burn through I would then reach for a glaze to hide the rest.



Swirls are the result of stopping the buffing process at too aggressive of a level, that being an abrasive pad/product combo. Working down the level from aggressive to fine will ensure the fewest amount of swirls.



This Lexus hood is a good example of what halograms look like.

And then removed.

I don't care for glazes either but they do have their place.



Anthony

 

[gmblack3]

I like the 777 APC alot. :up



They also sell body shine #49 and its $20 a gallon. Its the claylube that comes with the claymagic kit.



But I use menzerna too. :think:



I don't use glazes or anything with fillers.



What is wrong with me? :hairpull



:grinno:

 

[SVR]

Scuba Steve and Spilchy - well said



Many years ago most aggressive polishes/compounds left swirls but today's top gear does not

menzerna is one

I love the clearkote mooses, they are so versatile, take off paint from other cars, cleans acrylic bonnet protectors etc and removes fine marks permanently from my experience

They never came back after heaps of washes.



Great PC hazing video too, exterior care tips I don't agree with.

I have never used automagic but know of it and what scuba said about what market they are in is correct

Many worldwide industrial brands are made for dealerships and detail shops and the products us autopians use are in some cases light years ahead



Why fill marks when you can remove them.

I'm not as good as the guys that detail cars five days a week or more and basically when they post on here, I listen and listen hard.



There are quality differences between industrial brands but I do notice they all have the same range of stuff, silicone tyre dressings, lots of glazes and polishes with wax and wash and wax

Nothing revolutionary or exciting unlike the boutique stuff



You get swirls from bad washing and using lambswool pads with compounds

Foam pads will not. you can get some holograms and slight hazing with strong products but that's all removed by the products that follow