Audiophiles - could use your help/suggestions!

First IMO based on your strict budget ($350), I can't imagine any scenario where a quality audiophile system could be assembled, not even a decent mid-fi quality system. I don't know enough about low-fi offerings to make a recommendation. My recommendations would be 1) start saving your money. 2) determine what will be the source of your music (cd, dvd, vinyl) 3) find a quality hi-fi shop that allows you to sit down in a "listening room" and start listening to equipment. A quality shop will be able to set up the equipment without any extraneous (read switchers) components in the path. They should be happy to pick up, move around, switch out equipment mixing and matching source, control, and loudspeakers until you find the combination that moves you. The shop may also provide demo units and perhaps consignment pieces that would allow you to save a few coins.



Regarding the allocation of your funds, my recommendation would be the complete opposite of that provided by BoxterCharlie. My belief, and approach in my own system, is to put the empahasis on your source hardware (and software), then your control (amp/pre-amp or integrated) and then your loudspeakers. The logic is that if your system is producing sub-par music, that is what your loudspeakers will emit. The better the speaker, usually equates to a more revealing speaker which will certainly reveal all the warts of the equipment upstream. So sacrifice initially a little bit on the speakers in order to get the best music reproduction equipment possible.
 
Mr. Clean said:
.... My belief, and approach in my own system, is to put the empahasis on your source hardware (and software), then your control (amp/pre-amp or integrated) and then your loudspeakers. The logic is that if your system is producing sub-par music, that is what your loudspeakers will emit. The better the speaker, usually equates to a more revealing speaker which will certainly reveal all the warts of the equipment upstream. So sacrifice initially a little bit on the speakers in order to get the best music reproduction equipment possible.
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I don’t suppose your real name is Mr. Klean and your favorite listening source is an LP12? ;)





PC.
 
For the record (perhaps literally), my front-ends and electronics are worth about 6X what I paid for my speakers. My preamp alone is nearly the price of my speakers. But under these extreme budget conditions, I'd wager that a set of B&W mini-monitors and throwaway electronics will give the flavor, if not the reality, of high-end sound, whereas say a decent NAD integrated amp with $100 speakers will still only sound like Joe Blow went to Circuit City.



When Linn talks about the signal path, they surely aren't assuming the final signal is getting fed into a speakerphone...because it truly wouldn't make a difference there!
 
BoxsterCharlie said:
For the record (perhaps literally), my front-ends and electronics are worth about 6X what I paid for my speakers. My preamp alone is nearly the price of my speakers. But under these extreme budget conditions, I'd wager that a set of B&W mini-monitors and throwaway electronics will give the flavor, if not the reality, of high-end sound, whereas say a decent NAD integrated amp with $100 speakers will still only sound like Joe Blow went to Circuit City.



When Linn talks about the signal path, they surely aren't assuming the final signal is getting fed into a speakerphone...because it truly wouldn't make a difference there!
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Excellent points, Charlie. Personally, I don't know which approach I'd take given the budget of the OP. Years ago, as an experiment, I took my front end (Kenwood KD500 TT, Cotter isolation base, SME III tonearm, Audio Technica cartridge, home-built Dynaco PAT 5 preamp and SAE amplifier) over to a friend's to hook up to his, admittedly terrible, no-name speakers. We took some care repositioning the speakers and fired it up. It was a mini revelation. My friend couldn't believe the improvement! On the other hand, I totally understand where you're coming from.



Anyway, I guess it really comes down to whether the OP is looking for a stop gap until he can afford something better or if $350 is going to be it. If the former is the case, then your argument certainly holds merit; if the latter is the case I think the OP would be better off getting some well researched used equipment and following some of the excellent points made by Mosca.
 
BoxsterCharlie said:
For the record (perhaps literally), my front-ends and electronics are worth about 6X what I paid for my speakers. My preamp alone is nearly the price of my speakers. But under these extreme budget conditions, I'd wager that a set of B&W mini-monitors and throwaway electronics will give the flavor, if not the reality, of high-end sound, whereas say a decent NAD integrated amp with $100 speakers will still only sound like Joe Blow went to Circuit City.



When Linn talks about the signal path, they surely aren't assuming the final signal is getting fed into a speakerphone...because it truly wouldn't make a difference there!
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I'm with Charlie on this one.



Still, the bottom line is you will not have great sound without having great equipment at both ends of the chain.....and in between.
 
Go to the original post. He is going to be listening to compressed source material from a computer hard drive. You can play it through anything you want, but it will be limited by what it is. I think it would be a fair assumption that there might be a lot of near-field listening too, but I gave a more general recommendation that would work under any conditions.



Read between the lines, and see what the OP is really asking, which is, "How can I make this sound best for $350 to $500?" Then the response becomes more obvious.



I'm as hard core nutcase about some of this stuff as anyone, but I agree with Boxster Charlie; if I couldn't take $350 and get something that sounded decent I wouldn't be an audiophile. It might not be what I would pick for myself, but I'm not picking it for myself; I'm helping out someone who has $350.





Tom
 
Thanks a lot for all the responses guys!



I'll admit, I got a little discouraged by the debate that sort of sprung up on pages two and three. I decided to just hold on to my money for now, and learn a little more. Maybe next year or so.



In the meanwhile, I decided to purchase a set of ProMedia 2.1 --- Computer Speakers, Klipsch Computer Speaker System . Don't laugh too much - anyway, I got them for $40 - these are normally $149+.



Blows my Z3's out of the water, but obviously nothing any of you guys would consider. I realize that, but I just wanted something that would work for maybe the next few months to a year while I learn and save up for a truly good system. At any rate, though, they are pretty darned good compared to what I had before - and I thought that was ok.



Anyhoo, yes, I do listen a lot of compressed material, but I try to reduce that. I try to keep as many FLAC and APE files as I can (loseless) - and much of my earlier matieral is in OGG. However, yes, unfortunately much of it is in MP3.



And with these new speakers, I can finally hear the difference. It's a pity, really - MP3 is a poor format, audio quality-wise. But then again, how much quality is one going to get in 3-4 MB of space? It's a trade off.



Also, I use an Audigy 2 soundcard. Used to use the integrated AC 97 audio a while ago, and for what it was, it certainly wasn't bad. Decided to pick up an Audigy 2 off eBay - wow! Absolutely amazing compared to what I had before. However, I know it can definitely get much better.



At any rate, its rather difficult to find "audiophile" or otherwise purpose-built hi-fi audio components for the PC. There is the X-Fi series from Creative, which I'm sure is very good, but still probably wouldn't qualify as truly hi-fi. Other than that, there are really only hi end recording solutions - but I don't do recording, I do playback.



But if I can find a X-Fi on the cheap (despite its many variations - I believe only a few have the "real" x-fi chip), I may do it anyway.



Yea but thanks you guys - many of you are great. I'll be on the lookout for deals on craigslist and the such. Who knows, I might be able to piece together an okay system in the next couple of months!
 
Hey PC pretty good guess :) , but no I didn't buy into an LP12, though I have a good friend who does and has been through many, though not all, of the various upgrades. I'm a digital front-end guy (a primary reason being that a good number of my vinyl recordings were lost to a fire years ago - and thus I purchased a pre w/o a phono stage). I do have some Linn components in my system, but not all Linn. I don't get the Mr. Klean reference though...



paul34, I missed the debate you referenced, but FWIW I think you are making a good decision by deciding to stand pat for the moment. Maybe put a few more dollars away and re-evaluate your goal and approach. Good luck.
 
paul34 said:
Anyhoo, yes, I do listen a lot of compressed material, but I try to reduce that. I try to keep as many FLAC and APE files as I can (loseless) - and much of my earlier matieral is in OGG. However, yes, unfortunately much of it is in MP3.



And with these new speakers, I can finally hear the difference. It's a pity, really - MP3 is a poor format, audio quality-wise. But then again, how much quality is one going to get in 3-4 MB of space? It's a trade off.
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FWIW, I do most of my listening now to mp3s, using a Creative Jukebox3 or Zen along with a Headroom headphone amp and a nice set of headphones, either Etymotics or Sennheisers.



My garage system was put together for around the price point you had listed; I have an old Conrad-Johnson MV45 tube amp I scored for $200, a Hafler preamp that I got for $50, and a pair of Radio Shack mini monitors from the late '90s that were only available for a few months, the ones with the Linnaeum tweeters.* I think I paid about $80 for them. Everything's patched together with some starter-quality Audioquest cables, the cheapest ones. Truth told, it sounds pretty doggone decent, for something that sits on top of a tool chest. Source material is typically XM radio, or the aforementioned MP3 players.



Not ALL listening has to be critical listening.
 
Mosca said:
...Not ALL listening has to be critical listening.
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Agreed. Most audioholics (or audiophiles as some may prefer) I know listen for enjoyment/pleasure. From my perspective critical listening's primary role is during initial hardware purchase and set-up, as well as debut listening of new software.
 
paul34 said:
...In the meanwhile, I decided to purchase a set of ProMedia 2.1 --- Computer Speakers, Klipsch Computer Speaker System . Don't laugh too much - anyway, I got them for $40 - these are normally $149+. ..
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No laughing here, sounds to me like you got a great deal and a massive performance improvement over what you had. Can’t ask for more than that. :up



If all had was two ATM units in my pocket and walked away with that setup I’d be a happy camper too.





paul34 said:
...Anyhoo, yes, I do listen a lot of compressed material, but I try to reduce that. I try to keep as many FLAC and APE files as I can (loseless) - and much of my earlier matieral is in OGG. However, yes, unfortunately much of it is in MP3.



And with these new speakers, I can finally hear the difference. It's a pity, really - MP3 is a poor format, audio quality-wise. But then again, how much quality is one going to get in 3-4 MB of space? It's a trade off. ...
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Funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same. It’s not much different from “back in the day.�



When I was young (don’t you hate it when old &@*#$ say that?) a lot of music was only available on mass market vinyl (mediocre), cassettes (poor) or 8-tracks (miserable). There were audiophile labels putting out high grade vinyl pressings (re-mastered, virgin vinyl, half-speed masters, direct-to-disc, Direct Metal Masters, etc) and CrO2 cassettes but the selection of music was limited.



The big record labels just didn’t care about quality for the mass market. The Japanese market was more demanding and sometimes you could get Japanese pressings of popular albums. But for a lot of music you just got what you got and made the most of it, much like what you’re doing now.





paul34 said:
...At any rate, its rather difficult to find "audiophile" or otherwise purpose-built hi-fi audio components for the PC. There is the X-Fi series from Creative, which I'm sure is very good, but still probably wouldn't qualify as truly hi-fi. Other than that, there are really only hi end recording solutions - but I don't do recording, I do playback. ...
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Now that computers have taken over the recording biz there are very high performance PC recording and playback solutions available. But they aren’t cheap since they’re mostly aimed at the professional recording market.





Mr. Clean said:
Hey PC pretty good guess :) ...
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:D





Mr. Clean said:
... a good number of my vinyl recordings were lost to a fire years ago - and thus I purchased a pre w/o a phono stage....
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Bummer. I’m sorry to hear that. Well, if another vinyl collection comes your way (quite a few people are giving them up) you can always get a table and an external phono stage.





Mr. Clean said:
.... I don't get the Mr. Klean reference though....
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It was a Linn joke. They have a thing about the letter K.



(Linn brought us the Sondek LP12 and Basik turntables; Adikt , Akiva and Klyde cartridges; Kan, Isobarik, Artikulat and Classik speakers; Klout, Klimax, Akurate and Majik amplifiers; etc.)





Mr. Clean said:
Agreed. Most audioholics (or audiophiles as some may prefer) I know listen for enjoyment/pleasure. ....
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Stands up from folding chair, forcing self to make eye contact with crowd; “Hello. My name is pc. And I’m an audioholic.�



Crowd; “Hello, pc.�







PC.
 
Well most of you are wrong, for $500-$600 an truely audiophile system can be had rivailing those costing over $10,000 provided you know what to buy and your application !, but at $350 might as well get a HT in a box system which is no way an audiophile system.



My Grado headphones costs several times more than my "audiophile" system.



The biggest problem today is home theater systems with small shelf speakers and subswoofers, people think those are high end and have forgotten the true essence of hi-fi. Manufacturers are providing the middle class with nothing more that a 100 useless buttons and flashy blinking lights without paying attention the sonic quality, I guess the visual factor sells more audio equipment than good sound !



PM me for more details, I am an expert in budget audiophile systems, some of my systems have surprised those snobby audiophiles and have called my set-up true giant killers :secret
 
EdLancer said:
Well most of you are wrong, for $500-$600 an truely audiophile system can be had rivailing those costing over $10,000 provided you know what to buy and your application !, but at $350 might as well get a HT in a box system which is no way an audiophile system.



My Grado headphones costs several times more than my "audiophile" system.



The biggest problem today is home theater systems with small shelf speakers and subswoofers, people think those are high end and have forgotten the true essence of hi-fi. Manufacturers are providing the middle class with nothing more that a 100 useless buttons and flashy blinking lights without paying attention the sonic quality, I guess the visual factor sells more audio equipment than good sound !



PM me for more details, I am an expert in budget audiophile systems, some of my systems have surprised those snobby audiophiles and have called my set-up true giant killers :secret
Click to expand...



It's funny how many people think they know a secret, and have a true "giant killer" system for $500-600!
 
Given the budget, I would say it is possible to buy a reasonable system but it would require some work and the items would probably be second hand.



The other issue is there is no benchmark for quality, what sounds great for one person would be intolerable for another. The only meaningful test for a system is to listen to different products and ideally in your own room. If I could only offer one (or two) bit(s) of advice on HiFi it would be never underestimate the importance of acoustics and your ears & tastes are the only important factor when choosing a system
 
DJ_JonnyV said:
Wow, I just can't figure out what some are posting on here. It would lead me to believe that audiophile = expensive. I'm sorry, but that's just not the case.
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Err, yeah it *is* the case. A "good" stereo and a "audiophile" stereo are two entirely different things. Let me put it this way, if you go to best buy, listen to their "best" and think that's a audiophile set up, you aren't in touch with reality. All that they sell is garbage compared to Kef, Monitor Audio, Krell, Black mamba wires, that are $2,000 EACH. And yes, I can hear the difference. With that said, I shouldn't need to defend myself to you, a person who obviously knows nothing about audiophile set ups. But i did recommend a set up in my first post, Klipsch speakers are quite good for the money.
 
Rob Tomlin said:
It's funny how many people think they know a secret, and have a true "giant killer" system for $500-600!
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:rolleyes: I know right? $500?!?!? That guy has got to be kidding me. I've got a deal for him. Bring over said $500 pieced together "super system" and I'll play from our Mono blocks, black mambas, and Monitor's. Grab a rag to clean up the blood from the massacre though....it's like bringing a Ford Escort to a Lambo Murci LP640 top speed run. "Hey, my escort has a 350 in er though." :goodjob
 
JustinDetail said:
:rolleyes: I know right? $500?!?!? That guy has got to be kidding me. I've got a deal for him. Bring over said $500 pieced together "super system" and I'll play from our Mono blocks, black mambas, and Monitor's. Grab a rag to clean up the blood from the massacre though....it's like bringing a Ford Escort to a Lambo Murci LP640 top speed run. "Hey, my escort has a 350 in er though." :goodjob
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Now, just a minute. Are you saying that you can't put together a good sounding system for $500? I'm sure I can. Think, "used". One man's outmoded system is another man's entry level. If it sounded good 15 or 30 years ago, it still sounds good today.



"Audiophile" should be in the encyclopedia next to the law of diminishing returns, IMO. At around $2K you've hit 80% of the target, at $5K you've hit 90%, and the next $100K gets you the next 5%. I stopped at around $20K, maybe 10 years ago. I haven't heard anything since that made me think that I should spend any more. It was getting out of hand. (I've had "audiophile" equipment since I was 14, in 1968. My first system was the stuff in an earlier post; the Dynaco ST70 and PAS 3, Large Advents, Rek-o-kut TT, etc. Since then I've been through some great stuff, mostly tubes; I've owned Futterman amps (bought used, and what a PITA; no one could fix them). I'm done spending $$ on electronics, it's all content from now on.)
 
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